It's time for a constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to collective bargaining.

I have suggested that progressives call a Constitutional Convention after they crush the fascists who currently control the Repub Party. This way we can pass a whole lot of changes in 1 block to lock in our victory. Like we locked in "no actual slavery" after the Civil War.

Laura, I think it's Newsvine, not you.

Your link is stripped by the comment system. You can log into your NewsVine account, send them an email requesting permission to post links.

Otherwise, just leave off the "http://" part of the link. People will be able to cut and paste it into a browser.

Great idea! And after the people who had the vision to found a business, make it grow, and provide jobs for vast numbers of the population just who will you be working for?

lobration, I work for a locally owned business. Actually hundreds of thousands of locally owned businesses spread out across the country would employ more people than a few corporations headquartered in a few cities.

A Wal-Mart cuts the number of jobs in an area, as well as competition and thus wages.

The Koch brothers didn't found a business. They inherited one. Bill Gates founded a business, and he's not complaining about taxes.

Granted, small business is a major economic force and I do not argue the point. Primarily I was responding to the class warfare envy that Thomas post is seething with. But for the sake of argument.

WalMart was once a "locally owned business." It was a very well run business that expanded to what it is today. WalMart doesn't succeed because they do bad business. They succeed because they can offer the public the convenience, prices and items they want. WalMart simply wins the competition. They don't avoid it.

And no the Koch brothers didn't found a business. But their family did. The family business provides jobs and economic activity in this country the same as Microsoft. Mr. Gates is entitled to express or no express hit political opinions as he sees fit. Others can do the same.

Watch lobratio demonstrate the ignorant fascist thug. His mind is a complete blank to what labor unions are and how they operate. A hundred years of labor history are washed away in his empty head. But that does not stop him from telling others what to do. The elitist snob revels in his ignorance. lobratio will be the footsoldier in the coming fascist revolution, fighting to "save the Constitution" when he is too dumb to read it. Will lobratio be happy as the serf he longs to be? To serve his betters with mind body and soul? Will he die in the mud with a smile on his face?

Coincidence? Nope.

Conspiracy!

What kind of conspiracy? That the unions got huge wages that forced the steel and auto industries to relocate? So your saying the unions had a conspiracy to force those companies to leave?

You do know why it's called the rust belt right?

"That the unions got huge wages that forced the steel and auto industries to relocate?"

Wages that were approved by management.

And that makes it better? The jobs are still gone. And will never be back in those industries. I guess you are blaming the management for paying them too much? Funny, you seem to be all for unions in WI and their bargaining rights which most likely would mean higher pay and benefits in the future. So if say WI goes bankrupt will you say "well the higher salaries were approved by the WI government"? Still wondering what you meant by conspiracy.

"So if say WI goes bankrupt will you say 'well the higher salaries were approved by the WI government'?"

I see no one agitating for higher wages. And yes, I am blaming the management for paying them too much. If workers don't want the contract let them go on strike. That is how it works. Weak management caves so you blame the workers.

Why not blame UAW for poor management decisions which drove auto industry into bankruptcy?

Wow - like unions never went on strike for higher wages. OK....

Yes I blame UAW (the United Auto Workers UNION) for poor management decisions like demanding wages and benefits so high the companies had to leave. The best mismanagement by the UAW (you said it not me) were the "rubber rooms" where the idled workers had to go all day and do nothing, but the auto companies had to still pay them. So maybe the companies are partially to blame, but I would imagine if they didn't agree to some of these terms the UAW would strike and that stops all cash flow. Oh well. Don't really know now where you stand Covah. Maybe you should go into politics.

Still w

When unions don't get what they want they try to kill the business. They walk out and hold the business hostage. Workers don't return to the job until management caves. So are you suggesting that strong management should just say #&@! you lock the doors and go out of business?

lobratio - that is management's choice- bargain with the collective strength of the union or fold the tent and go out of business. Laber is a commodity like any other - there is no reason they (management) should not have to negotiate on the price.

You should be free to negotiate your wage with management. That's what I do. You should not be free to destroy a business that SOMEONE ELSE built because you think you can hold them hostage through union strong-arm tactics.

Unions do not create jobs. They live off the jobs that someone else created. There was a time when unions were a force for good. The good they did is wonderful. It has also been codified into law. The only thing the unions seem to do now is drain the businesses they have infiltrated.

There's a name for that: Parasite.

Investigative reporters and journalists should also be telling the other half of the story -- the Democratic Party threw unions under the bus thirty years ago when they decided not to fight the Reagan administration's union busting.

Worse, union leadership around the country made all manner of "compromises" which created a generational divide in most unionized workplaces, young people (now in their middle life) got crappy deals. Unions, without the support of the Democratic Party, were almost entirely unable to unionize emerging new labor markets. Unions are unheard of in technology companies, for example, but also pretty rare in the service industries in which many young people work.

Worse still, many of the teachers, firefighters, and police officers around the country who will be affected by these union busting bills voted for the TEA Party GOP Republican jackals who are now circling. If you're listening to these people closely, they don't always seem to clearly support unions, they support *their* union, but they agree with Rush/Glenn/Sean that "unions" are commie pinko organizations leading the nation to its demise.

Well said. thank you. still I think that more light needs to be in the parts if these "fiscal bills" that gives complete administrative authority of a town to one person appointed by the Governor. This one person can now fire any city workers and hire his own. (this has been done in Pontiac MN with the police force). this person can grant mineral rights to whatever company he wants and make decisions for cities with no vote and against public interest. This doesn't sound like a democracy it sounds like a dictatorship. And the people who put these bills in have shown they are all about paying back their cooperate "funders"!! it is down right scary.

It shouldn't have gotten to this. If all the legislators were doing their jobs, this whole bill (all parts) would have been decided upon a couple of weeks ago. The outcome would have been the same. I do think this was done either as a last resort to get some legislative business done or to get the WI senators back. Not sure if it was legal as you say, but if it was done the legal way don't you think the result would be the same? The assembly side just passed it too.

They did this because if it went on any longer they would have lost support from their own supporters and Republicans would have joined the dems and voted down this god forsaken bill. Not cause they should have done it a long time ago

Well that's your opinion. I still think it would have passed. The assembly passed both the original bill and this partial one. At this point I think the towel should be thrown in. Try lawsuits or go for recalls, but nothing else seems to be getting done in that statehouse. It's time to move to other business don't you think? The American public is notorious for having a short attention span and I really think that only the activists, unions and some sites like this will spend any decent amount of time on it. Almost everyone I work with talk about anything but this.

"If all the legislators were doing their jobs"

Republicans bluff, Democrats cave.

What's wrong with those Democrats, anyway? They did not cave like they were supposed to.

No they didn't "cave" - they "roomed", in Illinois. BTW I didn't say anything about caving. In every lesislative body usually the majority gets their way. It has nothing to do with caving. They could have stayed, voted their conscience, and be able to tell their supporters that they tried even though they lost.

I can agree that its time to move to other business but i cant agree with passing this bill the way they did. If they were desperate to go on with business then they should have scratched the bill and started over. This was about walkers ego and winning and losing. Not about getting the dems back or fixing the budget, walker was in it too deep and had no way out. People will not forget this and you better believe the recalls will come. The republicans true colorscame through and WI will not put up with bad politics. It was sneaky and wrong, the people will not forget, that's just what they think will happen but little do they know they opened the flood gates and they will lose their majority if not more...... Criminals!

Mr. Hoffman, your statements seem to indicate that you're inclined toward a "strict father" world view (to borrow an analytical lens and terminology from neuroscientist George Lakoff's writings such as The Political Mind), and similarly identifies you as an "authoritarian follower" (to borrow the similar lens and terminology from John Dean's Conservative Without Conscious). For a crystal clear example I cite: "It shouldn't have gotten to this. If all the legislators were doing their jobs..." WIth this statement, you imply that the Democratic members of the Wisconsin legislature brought this down upon themselves; that it's *their* fault that the GOP broke the law in order to get their way.

Dude. Nobody forced the Republican Party to break the law, today. They did it because they, like you, have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the rule of law means. It doesn't mean that they (or you) get to decide on a moment by moment basis who made you break the law, or who gets to be punished in violation of the cruel and unusual punishment prohibition in the Constitution (consider the Obama administration's treatment of Bradley Manning) and who gets to be given a pass for their crimes (such as Wall Street executives willfully wrecking the economy).

Gary: He's the guy who has claimed he spent 13 years in the Navy and has also claimed that he didn't see any bigots while he was in the Navy. Figure the odds!

First Gary you know nothing about me, but it is cool that you can sound like some therapist. I am not disputing whether yesterday's stunt - the last of many stunts by both sides - is legal or not. My point was that it should not have got this far if all the legislators were doing business for the past month. You seem to lay no blame on state senators who willfully shirked their duties for over 3 weeks. But Ok, that may not be criminal. Still, as I stated earlier, if the Republicans gave the 24 hour notice and did everything by palimentary procedure, what do you think the outcome would be? This whole event is becoming a little old for most Americans who have better things to do that write on blogs (like us) and camp out in statehouses. Obviously the Democrats do not have the power to stop this bill, so now what? Continue with stunts? Man their hotel bills must me huge, but I know they probably aren't paying much of it. I'm sure whatever funds they are getting is legal, really, but come on, web sites to pay for their hotel stays?

Yes Edgar I DID serve in the Navy and just because you were bitter about your service (I think you said you did serve) I am not. So now there are two guys here who know me quite well....

I don't ordinarily address people I consider contemptible directly, but in your case, Hoffman, I will make an exception. I can see that you are obviously a phoney. You acknowledge saying that you were in the Navy. You conveniently forgot your ludicrous claim that you saw no bigots in those 13 years. Instead, your try to make me the bad person because I don't have star-spangled eyes. You probably think that the Tillman family is just "bitter". I will not pretend to have the least bit of respect for you because I do not. That's the way it is. I really don't give a flying fig if you don't like it.

Mr. Hoffman, I strongly suspect that the Republicans didn't even realize they were violating this law until it was pointed out to them. However, their actions when it was pointed out to them were juvenile, and more importantly, illegal. The outcome, had they complied with the law, would have been that they would have had the meeting in compliance with the proper functioning of government, and they would have passed the same law. The difference is that they could have been, in that hypothetical case, looking much less like bullies. Their (and your) arguments concerning the actions of the Democratic legislators might even have managed to persuade a few that they, not the Democrats, had the moral high ground. They definitely gave that up, didn't they?

Regarding your therapy remark: you wrote that in your mind, I didn't write it. You seem like a run of the mill internet faux libertarian, and I don't have any idea if you need therapy. You need to read a few more books, and I suggested two very interesting ones that you might actually enjoy. John Dean isn't a commie pinko (look at his resume) and George Lakoff writes in a fascinating way about the neurological science behind the actions and conceits of both political parties. It just so happens that one applies to you. (My brain is pretty clearly wired up under the "nurturing parent" model, by contrast, which has its own set of weaknesses.)

Edgar I discounted your statements first time you commented back to me weeks ago. You seem to focus on the term bigots in a lot of your posts which I think sometimes has nothing to do with the topic at hand - like this one. So I really don't give a "fig" either. At best you are a little laugh for me.

Gary I never implied that the Republicans had the high moral ground. All I am saying is that this whole event has become a spectacle not worthy of a state government. Both sides are adding fuel to this continuing soap opera. It would be nice if both parties treated this bill like every other bill should be treated - with debate and a little decorum. Not every bill is going to be to the liking of every legislator and common citizen, but that is why we have votes.

And thank you for your book recommendations, but I don't get on this blog for literary advice or personal anaysis like you tried to do in both your posts. So from this "run of the mill faux libertarian" I will thank you to keep your condesending "run of the mill elitist" comments to yourself.

Republicans use "decorum" to hide their lies. I watch Republicans lie on television talk shows all the time- Tavis Smiley, Charlie Rose, Meet the Press. They know David Gregory is not going to smack them in the face so they release enormous putrid whoppers. Republicans wear white shirts and ties and pretend to be spiffy as a pose, an act to cover their thefts. If you do not know anything about politics and economics like most people you will be fooled by them, which is their intent. The intelligentsia see through Republican lies, but who cares about that tiny minority? Ignore them and they go away. Republicans know they need only a tiny majority to win an election and that's all they get. But it's enough for them to do their dirty deeds.

Covah: Yes, and there are way too many faux-civil phoney-baloney right wingers who desperately need to get over themselves on this site. When you call them out for something outrageous, they dissemble, misdirect, change the subject, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

I'd like to see an intelligent comment from a Republican. Just one. Someday.

Im way late on this but just wanted to say the dem senitors were doing their job. There job to represent the people, the 100,000 people outside protesting. It seems to me the republicans who forced this bill were not representing the people but the special interests. I dont want to hear that they were not doing their job

Well, that much is actually quite clear. Unions typically work to limit the types of jobs which can be "out sourced" to private contractors. When the union is disbanded, the state will be able to outsource jobs which heretofore were considered "inherently governmental"; basically anything that management (the Governor's office) wants to out source for any reason, more or less anything that isn't an elected position could be out sourced.

The folk selling this notion as a jobs creation strategy seem to do a +1 for the private sector without doing the -1 for the displaced former government employee, though. They tend to be pretty bad at simple math, these trickle down economics types.

Leaving the door open for access to records and public water systems and such by contractors that may or may not be qualified or have clearances. There will be lower paying jobs created after they fire the public employees. Uhhhh...how is that good overall?

Private unions only represent 7 million right? So assuming 150 million or so workers in the US that comes out to less than 5%. I'm not sure how much clout 5% (IF they all came out) would have.

Idealistically, if 7 million people began talking about the benefits of organizing, we would at least have a starting point. Unions need to clean up their image. The country does need some semblance of organization, which unions are supposed to be good at. Clout or not, it would be an effort. This country is spinning in circles and the ramifications are severe. At the least, it's an effort. At best, it's an effort. An awful lot of people need to mature and learn how to communicate effectively. Disagreement is fine. Non-compromise on this level is lethal. P.S. According to a lot of media, 1% seem to have a lot of clout. Seems to me like we're for sale.

that doesnt take me to the artical or video! it just goes to the homepage. are you sure thats the right URL?

Try this:

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/09/scott-fitzgerald-obama/

It wont work, If they just were able to "sneek it by" like they were trying to then it may have. but in my openion the way that they had to pass this and the way they did pass this, the people of WI will not be electing any Republicans for a long time! how can they? they trusted them and voted for them and then theur roghts were taken away by them. Thats not something that I will forget no matter how many political ads I see.

It has worked, it is working, and it will continue to work. The GOP will not lift a finger, either at the state or national level, to help fix the economy. They probably believe their own bogus "tax cuts cure all" trickle down nonsense. Regardless, the few things they are willing to do, legislatively, will not help the economy and will slow the recover and delay GDP growth and delay job growth. The only chance Obama has in 2012 is if the GOP nominates a crazy person to run against him. Fortunately, the odds of that seem pretty good.

Gary: I doubt that any more than a few actually believe that hogwash about the magic of tax cuts...they are deliberately and with malice aforethought trying to make the rich richer and everybody else poorer.

Hard evidence shows Republicans knew tax cuts for the rich- i.e. supply-side economics- was a hoax. They knew it then and they know it now. When Stockman blew the whistle on the hoax Republicans got rid of Stockman but continued the scam. Even today after 30 years of evidence proving supply-side economics is a hoax they continue to push tax cuts for the rich. They know exactly what they are doing- driving the country into bankruptcy in order to seize power in a fascist coup, which we saw happen in Wisconsin the other day. Republicans push and push and when the system breaks they grab power with no concern over their exhibition of contempt for rule of law. "I have mine and screw you" is all they know and all they will ever know. Constitutional authority is vanity. Rule of law is vanity. Lies, panders, and postures for power to loot the treasury is all there is. Might makes right.

Seeing the blatant Republican power grab in Wisconsin reminds one of the game Republicans like to play so much, called "projection". When Republicans grab power and cram legislation down Americans' throats it's normal. When Democrats pass legislation under due process it's a "power grab" and "crammed down Americans' throats". Compare health insurance reform, passed after a year of open debate and attacked as a "power grab" and "crammed down Americans' throats" to the Republican Medicare Modernization Act of 2003 which really was a "crammed down Americans' throats" with backroom Chicago-style politics.

Gary.. Are you telling me that you think that the people of WI will forget about this by 2012 and Obama will lose the state? I dont think so.. I think this looks really bad and they will not make the mistake of putting republicans in office for a wile.. God help us if a Republican gets beats Obama or worse a Tea Party president.. good god

I would partially agree with you that the likelihood of such a bill _passing— in Washington state is low. But there are factions that definitely would support at least _introducing— such a bill.

The sentiment is not too hard to find once you move beyond the Seattle metro. Particularly as it pertains in the more blue-collar communities nearby, such as Auburn, Renton and especially Everett. Basically the Boeing manufacturing hubs. When Boeing transferred their headquarters from Seattle to (I believe) Chicago, during Phil Condit's tenure of that company, many in the anti-union camp blamed the workers' unions for excessive contract negotiations. I'm not saying this is right, but I'm basing this on many arguments I had with my old man, who worked at Boeing for about 20 years and absolutely hated unions (still does). As did many of his co-workers on the white-collar non-assembly line side of Big Plane.

I would be curious to see how this plays out now, particularly since the economy is more diverse and Boeing isn't necessarily the only driving force in town (boom/bust). But it's not as blue state as everyone would like to believe. Gregoire's narrow gubernatorial victories over Dino Rossi weren't freak occurrences.

Actually, J., I think this one might be true. I remember watching our gov on tv last month and a month or two previous to that, explaining a lot of this is happening to WA state b/c of that f'd up t-shirt operator who puts crap on our ballots to defeat the gov'ts budgetary process. He's our version of that idiot who goes around dressed as a pimp, etc., who brought down Acorn and is trying the same with NPR. I think b/c we voted down the tax on drinks and implementation of a state tax on the rich which Gates' dad tried to get passed, we can now not pay for our wonderful ferries, so Gregoire is thinking about putting the ferry budget process into a different type of funding process. Unless this is about something else. I'm most sad about the loss of our state healthcare program for the poor, which she set up a decade or so ago. She was almost in tears over that. But Boeing just got that gov't contract, and we've got two of the most progressive businesses, completely pro-employee - Microsoft and Starbucks. The data shows that last month WA state grew 11,000 jobs, so I believe WA will be the first state to bounce back from this oppression and Seattle will lead the way forward, as long as we can shut down the white supremists east of us. They found that MLK Parade bomber cuz he left his t-shirt in the bag - brainless prejudiced thugs. They're all cowards. Thank God Rossi lost to Gregoire first AND Murray this time around! Seattle is one of the most progressive cities in the nation; unfortunately it's also surrounded by some of the most extremist counties in the nation. Keep up the good fight everyone!

Kevin, I completely agree with you. I also don't like unions, but I do want to keep a democrat in office and turning him from purple to a bit more blue. I also don't like what Boeing stands for, but I'd rather have Boeing in our state for economic reasons and, yes, they are now headquartered in Illinois. I also heard they put their new plant in a state with no unions to go along with the sweet deal they got from that gov with the mistress. I forget which one cuz there are too many to count, but it was the one who cried on tv. Not Bonehead, although he has one or two of his own, as well, and probably a couple of young boys on the other side. So we need a people's union - period. Let's keep sharing our ideas and show where the real power is everyone.

Not much to add to your comment RJ, except that I know that Boeing is crucial to the overlooked blue-collar classes, particularly in south King Co. (aka "the South End") and Snohomish county. Boeing has a history of playing to the cheapest bidder, unfortunately. Several friends I went to high school with have assembly jobs in the Renton plant. Ordinary, regular guys with solid famillies. My sentiments are with them, not necessarily with their employer. It's a tricky position to have, given Boeing's massive thumbprint on the entire community that goes back four generations (or more).

I'm in the exact same sitch, Kevin. Outsourced but working for Boeing - job used to pay 3x what it does now. Working for nothing.

On a different note, did you see that the MLK Parade Bomber heroes were fired? I called Labor Ready and spoke to the woman who announced that they were fired. If you or anyone wants her phone number, email and address, I'll be happy to share it.

Love your song!! You seem to understand and express the situation very well! All the ppl arguing about whether unions are good or bad, or some things about them are good, while others are bad..well they're just missing the whole issue. Read The Shock Doctrine..Check out ALEC. Again, I love your song! You should put it on Youtube! :)

It is on youtube now...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya9NK_D1Gy0

Your post, and the fact that your link was broken, reminded me of this essay on fascism.

The Rise of Fascism in America

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0412-32.htm

The treatment of Bradley Manning is of deeper concern that the Republican's end game on unions busting. Nonetheless, people who value democracy should maintain vigilance and awareness. As a nation, we're not doing very well on that. People know that "fascism" is a "bad word" but they don't really know what it means. Toward that end, there's a good primer at Wikipedia, which all good liberals should read, primarily because the right wing in this country (consider the famous example of Glenn Beck) frequently paints the left with this brush.

Fascism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Republicans have been fascist since at least the 1930s. Millions fought and died for the fascist cause. It's a very real thing, not a generic insult. The Encyclopaedia Britannica has a good article but unfortunately not on line. It's amazing to me that people debate politics without bothering to find out what the words mean.

Fascists are opposed to everything this country stands for. Fascists grew organically in opposition to Enlightenment Era values such as equality of birth and rule of law. Thus they are the modern expression of traditional aristocratic values. Fascists view government as a tool used by the wealthy to protect their wealth and power from the rabble. Religion is their other tool. Fascism embraces capitalism. Fascism is the union of religion and government to oppress the people and enrich the capitalist/ownership class. They also have a strong affiliation for military theatrics.

worker exploitation has NOT been eradicated. The one place it still exists is where it ALWAYS exists, in immigrant communities. Even citizens are treated poorly lest INS find out about a worker's extended family living with them.

Keep in mind that were the workers and/or their families in the country legally they wouldn't have to worry about INS and could avail themselves of the legal protections.

On the other side companies that exploit illegal immigrant labor are also in violation of the law. There should be fines levied against them high enough to discourage the lawbreaking or put them out of business if the criminal behavior continues.

Although we don't need unions to unite, we also don't need unions to be stripped of their rights to bargain for their members. That is a blatant effort by the republicans aimed at dividing and conquering the opposition.

FaceBook, Twitter, and Google are not likely to be as effective with the mundane issues that unions help with. Toppling a brutal oppressive regime, sure, you can motivate people to demonstrate with a few tweets. The revolution might be on Twitter (apologies to Malcolm Gladwell) but the day to day process of negotiating with your boss for a clean and safe workplace.. not so much.

Point taken, Gary, but unions are obviously on their way out. I want a new way of funding our democrats and getting rid of the local republican judges. That's what social networking is for. Change in the workplace will have to be worked out as well. We have to be four steps ahead of the republicans to fight them - like a master chess game - and we'll have to get involved on a local level. That's where the fight needs to be.

Most people agree that we need firefighters, police and teachers. And most people agree that the people in those jobs should actually be good at it. But we can't have our cake and eat it too.

If we want to attract the best candidates for the job, we have to pay them a competitive wage. That's just the way it is because we do not have a socialist economy, because we do have a capitalist economy.

But unions, especially the teacher's union, are decidedly anti-capitalist. They don't allow the best teachers to be paid for performance, only by seniority. They fight tooth and nail to keep bad teachers in the system. The unions do not encourage excellence in the workplace.

I want great teachers in the classroom! Let's pay the best what they're worth and the rest can decide if they want to continue on in mediocrity or work to excel as well. Uniformity of compensation does not breed excellence.



lobratio, tenure only means teachers get a hearing before they get dismissed so the don't get fired for arbitrary reasons...like making a stink about out of date textbooks or classroom size. The best teachers are also usually advocates for students in demanding better tools instead of just going with the flow of the school board.

Plus, teacher evaluations are poorly done with 99% getting "satisfactory" ratings. We would have to hire more people to do the evaluations thoroughly.

If the best teachers were paid a significantly higher wage, when it came time to cut spending, the best teachers would get fired first. The government isn't actually a business. It doesn't profit monetarily from better teachers. The government's revenue is from taxes. If we actually had to pay the best what they're worth, we'd have to double their salary. Yes, double. And then raise taxes to cover it.

The median salary for public school teachers is around $40k. That's below the national median salary.

What breeds excellence is a wage so high the employee isn't worried about money at all. In other words, having financial security is a motivator--not trying to get financial security, but when you actually have it and aren't distracted and stressed about how you're going to pay your bills. The carrot on a stick method of pay has been proven to only increase performance in unskilled labor.

What motivates a teacher isn't money, but the success of their students. That's why teachers unions actually tend to negotiate for things like smaller class size and supplies for their students. If money were the primary motivator for a teacher, we wouldn't have teachers now.

Tenure and the teacher's unions make it almost impossible to get rid of bad teachers. That's why some states have "rubber rooms" where they send the worst of the worst because the process to fire them is so arduous it will take years but they can't let them stay around the kids.

Here's a thought. Lets pay the great teachers what their worth and get rid of the activities that don't educate. Half of the administration for example. Let's get some competent managers in that know how to run a business and make it successful. Public education is not successful. Sports programs. Let the teams raise funds from the community if they want to continue to have the programs at the school.

You're right though. The government is not a business. Any business run so poorly would have ceased to exist long ago. The only reason it doesn't collapse it because it can force the population to pay taxes.

The pursuit of financial security does motivate excellence. It's why I continue to try to do my job better every day, the better I perform the higher my wages. Financial security often breeds lethargy.

While $40k is slightly below the median salary the benefits the teachers receive are often far in excess of the private sector. Health care expenses alone leveled that playing between my salary and theirs last year. Not to mention guaranteed pension benefits that would bankrupt a business. But the government just prints/borrows more money.

SOME teachers are motivated by their passion for the students. I had a fair share of teachers in my school career who were simply phoning it in.

People paint teachers, police, and firefighters with this noble brush. The truth is they are doing the jobs they WANT to do. We should pay them fairly for that job and expect them to do it to the best of their ability. It's what they agreed to when they signed up. Most are no more noble in their career choice than the IT geek who loves computers, the manager at the apartment complex or the entreprenueur who started a business and made it big. We're all doing what we want to do.

If teachers have it so good why don't you go become one? You obviously hold yourself in high regards as an intelligent person and capable person, and you've already admitted out loud that your employer treats you worse than the schools treat teachers. Why not do it? You'd have a job where you couldn't get fired, where you'd get all these great benefits, and where you'd get such great pay. You then could set the standard by which other teachers have to adhere to. You could work your way up to administrator where you'd have control over said pay or at least could negotiate w/ the unions. You act like you're so powerless against this nameless bully, but you could be in complete control of this system. You act like teachers are super spoiled and yet this is somehow not you advocating that you want to be a teacher. Beyond that the higher wage you make would then equate to higher taxes to be paid to the government, so you'd actually be helping the national debt and the state debt. Seems like a win/win to me. Why don't you get on it?

Maybe you missed this.

I'm already doing a job I love. I'm happy with the company I work for and teaching holds no appeal for me.

Are teachers stupid? Did someone trick them into doing their job with promises of high wages and blue skies forever? Are teachers locked into their jobs with no option of ever doing something else?

The answer to all 3 is NO. They're not stupid. They knew the deal when they signed up to do the job. They can walk and do something else anytime they want to.

I get tired of hearing how bad we treat teachers. If it's so bad let them find another job. If it's not bad enough for them to get out then shut up and teach.

Watch lobratio humiliate himself by mindlessly repeating the usual right-wing lies.

"They fight tooth and nail to keep bad teachers in the system." Of course teacher unions are not responsible for evaluating teacher performance.

"I get tired of hearing how bad we treat teachers. If it's so bad let them find another job." Most do, and that's a big problem. What intelligent hard-working adult would spend six years or more in college for a job that will never pay more than a living wage, and usually not even that, and be treated like of sack of excrement? And that's the plan. The worse you make the teaching profession the lower the quality of people who choose it. There is something called "emergency credentials" which allow anyone to walk in off the street and be hired as a school teacher. The reason is twofold- first, administrators deliberately hire unqualified teachers because they have no rights and second, qualified teachers choose not to work where they are treated badly.

The number of people willing to put in the many years of preparation to be a school teacher are far fewer than the number of teachers needed. So instead of improving working conditions administrators lower standards. What other profession gives emergency licenses? Doctors? Lawyers? Plumbers? Public school is a disaster in this country because it is INTENDED to be a disaster.

When teachers are paid on par with the median wage earner that's not fair because they also get benefits. This is not somehow an admission that I should become a teacher (because I know I'd make less money at a crappier job), but this is somehow evidence that they should have their salaries slashed. And if they don't like it they can quit! Yeah that'll do it! I can't quit my job to become a teacher- no- but they can quit to do my job. Yesh. My circular logic is not interesting to watch implode on itself whatsoever.

Yeah, it's funny how Republicans get all huffy about "redistribution of wealth" yet they do it all the time with tax cuts for the wealthy and benefit cuts for everyone else. Redistribution of wealth is just fine as long as it is from the pockets of the working class to the pockets of the wealthy.

Marsha, corporations don't pay taxes. Jack the tax rates on corporations all you want. You will receive one of two outcomes. The corporations will go somewhere with a more favorable tax policy or you will see prices on the shelf rise so that their bottom line isn't impacted. Consumers pay the corporations taxes.

A large portion of the country doesn't pay any income tax now! Should we just start handing people cash from the federal government? That's what Bush did and most liberals think that work out fantastically.