With Andrea Mitchell, February 22, 2011:
MITCHELL: According to subsequent reports, Inspector General's reports, that intelligence unit, that analysis unit in the Pentagon was stove piping information – intelligence information.
RUMSFELD: What does that mean? Stove piping?
MITCHELL: Mr. Secretary, you know what stove piping means. It was keeping intelligence information away from other units. Not permitting people in the CIA -
RUMSFELD: Oh, not at all.
Quoted in the 9/11 Commission Report, page 403 (pdf):
Recalling the Goldwater-Nichols legislation of 1986, Secretary Rumsfeld reminded us that to achieve better joint capability, each of the armed services had to "give up some of their turf and authorities and prerogatives." Today, he said, the executive branch is "stove-piped much like the four services were nearly 20 years ago."
With Jim Leherer, August 17, 2004
DONALD RUMSFELD: Therefore, you have to have this coordinated, cooperative arrangement where you break out these stovepipes that categorize everything and then no one can look in those categories, unless they're cleared for that. You've got to...
JIM LEHRER: One stovepipe doesn't know what the other stovepipe knows, et cetera, et cetera.
DONALD RUMSFELD: Yeah, yeah.
Dude, we have teh google now.
ADDING:
Calton in the comments doesn't agree that Rumsfeld's history of using "stove pipe" is proof that he knows what Andrea is talking about.
Calton makes a good point and does a consice job differentiating between stove pipe as a synonym for silo and "stovepiping" as a practice within the intelligence community of bypassing appropriate review processes and elevating information straight to the top. The reason I think the above quotes are damning is that, particularly in the case of his confeversation with Jim Lehrer, he is plainly aware of exclusivity as inherent in the meaning of stove pipes and it's the abuse of that exclusivity that is inherent in the more specific meaning of "stovepiping." I don't see how someone could understand the meaning of stove pipes as Rumsfeld demonstrates in the first two quotes and not understand what Andrea is asking.
The context of the first two quotes is very different, I'll certainly grant that. In the Lehrer quote he's still talking about Iraq intelligence, but he's describing a system of processing intelligence more efficiently and securely, and that part of their conversation is about whether centralizing intelligence would be better for drawing more accurate conclusions. But again, he clearly understands that stove pipes exclude outside agencies from seeing the material being worked on so at the very least he must understand the term as Andrea's using it (to exclude the CIA) and it's impossible to imagine he wouldn't also understand that excluding others also means removing the influence of their analysis.
By the way, for a much less concise discussion of stovepiping, see Seymour Hersh's "The Stovepipe" in the New Yorker:
Part of the answer lies in decisions made early in the Bush Administration, before the events of September 11, 2001. In interviews with present and former intelligence officials, I was told that some senior Administration people, soon after coming to power, had bypassed the government's customary procedures for vetting intelligence.
A retired C.I.A. officer described for me some of the questions that would normally arise in vetting: "Does dramatic information turned up by an overseas spy square with his access, or does it exceed his plausible reach? How does the agent behave? Is he on time for meetings?" The vetting process is especially important when one is dealing with foreign-agent reports—sensitive intelligence that can trigger profound policy decisions. In theory, no request for action should be taken directly to higher authorities—a process known as "stovepiping"—without the information on which it is based having been subjected to rigorous scrutiny.
At the risk of inviting a battles of semantics, I welcome further input on whether the quotes above mean what I think they mean.
(Also, I fixed the space and typo in the 9/11 report copy/paste, but I'm standing by "teh google.")
Leave a Comment:
I hate to say this -- no, really, I do -- this doesn't prove what you think it does, since clearly the term "stove-pipe" as Rumsfeld is using in those quotes seems akin to what MBA/Human Resource types in the business world call "siloed": different parts of a company or organization, operating separating, as if they were in different and laterally inaccessible silos. It's a condition.
"Stove-piping" as used in an intelligence-gathering context is a verb, an action of taking raw intelligence data and bypassing the normal chain of vetting and analysis and going straight to policy people so they can monkey with it to their heart's content.
Don't get me wrong: I'm sure Rumsfeld is lying through his teeth about not knowing the second meaning of "stove-piping". But those two quotes don't prove that. You need to find different ones.
RE; Typo Worrier-Warriors-
"The dam is breaking up! We might drown!"
"You think THAT'S bad? I just spilled some of my four-dollar cappuccino!"
He is not slippery. Anyone who listens to him talk knows that when he starts to get all folksy saying things like "Heavens to Betsy," or "Oh goodness gracious" he's prefacing a lie. It's just that the media in this country won't call him out on his lies.
I enjoy the Rumsfeld two-step: When referring to Colin Powell in NSC meetings he states his perceptions of Powell and then says "And that's a fact." Okay Rummy -- what's the fact -- the fact that it is your perception of the individual, or the fact that this is what the individual's viewpoints were?
He then goes on to deny that he's read any other report or book on the war or the decision making process leading up to the war. I picture Rummy sitting under the "cone of silence" -- or in this case -- the "cone of deniability."
The head of the DISinformation Act
Rumsfield Productions: Jessica Lynch rescue in Iraq. Pat Tillman NOT shot by friendly fire. Saddam found in a 'spider hole'...and taken off and hung. Mrs. Hussein after waiting for months, visited the supposed Saddam.. came running out saying "WHERE is my husband?! This is NOT my husband!" Had troops punished for pictures at Abu Gharaid and THEN sent pictures worldwide of Saddam looking drugged, in his 'shorts' with doctor looking for lice. Yeah -
Rumsfield Products: Tamiflu..which had star anise in it, causing neurological damage. Aspertane, with all kinds of lawsuits against it. He's a multi-multi millionaire. The book has to be for trying to convince his grandchildren...
The man has no soul.
Do you guys have spell check ?
Do you have spell check ?
Do you haz cheezburger?
people keep forgetting that what they say is caught on tape or in print and we KNOW when they are lying!
I'm hoping Ol' Rummy gets skewered on The Daily Show tonight. He's pretty slippery though, as are all liars, so he'll no doubt escape with his dishonor attached.
I hate to say this -- no really, I do -- but those quotes don't prove what you think they do. From the context, Rumsfeld is using "stove-piped" in the same way that business types use the term "siloed", as a condition, a description of compartmentalization in an organization, where each section operates inside a "silo" that shares information up and down but not laterally across the organization. "Stove-piping" in an intelligence context is a verb, an action describing the taking raw intelligence data and bypassing the normal vetting and analysis process, sending it straight to the policy-makers to misinterpret and monkey around with for their own ends.
Don't get me wrong: I'm sure Rumsfeld is lying through his teeth when he says he doesn't know the second meaning of "stove-piping". But those two quotes of his don't show that.
Good for Mitchell for calling him on playing dumb! We need more journalists challenging people who make the news.
Yes, Donald, these are the known knowns.
Rumsfeld, Cheney, the Koch Brothers, these people have no shame...
read the book "The Persecution of George Bush for Murder". There is a clear and compelling case that there was conspiracy to commit murder by taking American troops into harm's based on lies. A very good read, but will make you very very angry!
The US went into Vietnam full tilt after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, which was also a lie. 58,000 people died during my youth because of it. Lyndon Johnson wasn't tried for war crimes. However, the stress of it all probably contributed, somewhat, to his quick demise after leaving office. George H. W. Bush had the sense to get into and out of Kuwait after his mission was complete. His son chose to ignore anyone but Cheney and Rumsfeld- both liars. The man has left a massive mess behind and our troops are suffering, as are innocent civilians, for no good reason. Again, he won't be tried for war crimes. We don't have the national stomach to do it.
Win!
Why is it that GOOPers have such a hard time with the concept of video tape and printed documents recording the past so that it can be recalled in the future?
I realize that their constituents--tea baggers--have short memories and really aren't concerned with facts, but really! You'd think the GOOPers would at least make an attempt to look like they understand the modern world. That is, the world after 1450 when the printing press was invented.
Yeah, Dumsfeld's interview with Jon Stewart seemed pretty "softball" to me, but I haven't seen the "extended interview" yet. He was also on The View this a.m. and got more softballs IMO. I noticed that when he looks out on an audience applauding him, he really seems to revel in it--likes the limelight, apparently. This war criminal shouldn't be out hawking a book, he should be in Guantanamo. He is absolutely a liar.
Am disappointed that Rumsfeld's interviewers fail to mention Sec. of Treasury Paul O'neills statements about Bush's first cabinet mtg. ; eight days after the Inaugration and 8 months before 9/11 , Bush was discussing the invasion of Iraq and in subsequent meetings the division of Iraq's oilfields. This pre-invasion mandate nullifies any denials about faulty intelligence ; they (Bush,Cheney & Rumsfeld) were only seeking a plausible excuse.
The word that keeps popping up in my mind is "WEASEL." I wonder if Rummy knows the meaning of that word because he resembles it.