A riot policeman fires tear gas at protestors.
Night has fallen on another day of political protest in Egypt. Cairo is under a curfew.
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is reportedly soon going to speak. Meanwhile, Reuters reports that Vodafone has been told to switch off the cell service in Egypt.
An NBC producer on the ground in Cairo says the army is in the streets. Al Jazeera International says Egyptian authorities have told them to switch their cameras off. One look at the photo above and you can start to see why that would be in their better interests.
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This was so very predictable. The one thing nobody spoke of after SOTU was Obama's expressed support for the demonstrations. I am as blue as they get, but when he said that I went, "Uh oh." I just do not think that a destabilized Egypt is in our best interest -- and I have no hope that if Mubarack is deposed that "democracy" will result.
Hang in there Rachel. You are the only thing holding up the MSNBC ratings.
Egypt was a tree rotting from the inside....this event was predictable, just like predicting that a volcano will erupt. You know the conditions are right, you know it has happened in the past....you just have no idea of the exact time the eruption will take place. I don't think anything Obama or any other American said would make a shred of difference here. These people are fed up with 30 years of a fairly oppressive government, and they saw how angry people were able to topple the Tunisian government. No doubt that if Mubarak falls, there will have to be concern over islamists taking over, but as the old Who song says, "Hail to the new boss, same as the old boss". One totalitarian regime will be replaced by another.
Now that Mubarack has turned off cell and internet service and is turning the screws by having his army/police replace their rubber bullets with lead to take down stone and moltov cocktail throwing protesters, do you think that the oppressed citizens of Egypt would die to have our 2nd Amendment rights permitting citizens to form armed militias to counteract the oppression of their government?
OK, talk amongst yourselves.
Yeah, I can see how it would be MUCH better to have major armed battles in the street.
If Egyptians were able to buy guns as freely as Americans, the government would have fallen to islamic extremists many years ago.
From the reports I've heard, the protesters have been generally peaceful. The stones and molotov cocktails (still rare amongst the tens of thousands of people who were standing and chanting) didn't come out until the military was sent in. Before that, riot police closed in on peaceful protesters with massive amounts of tear gas and high pressure fire hoses.
Having people start out armed in the streets would have led to chaos and deaths. Deaths of the protesters, not the police who were safely ensconced in armored riot vehicles. They'd have had to have had anti-tank weapons to effectively fight back, and that's before the military was called in.
Also, I hardly think this is analogous to anything going on in the US.
Oh, and the second amendment was put in for civil defense because most of the country didn't yet have regular police forces or the protection of a standing army. And there was seemingly endless room to expand along the frontier. Hence the authorization for "well-regulated militias" to help maintain law and order and to defend against foreign incursions. The US military is far more powerful and better equipped than the Egyptian military. There's no way a civilian militia could take on even the National Guard, let alone the army, navy, air force, and marines.
That's assuming that things got to anything like the point they are in the Middle East, which, while theoretically possible, seems awfully far-fetched, even with the economy as it's been.
>> If Egyptians were able to buy guns as freely as Americans,
>> the government would have fallen to islamic extremists many years ago.
Right - because terrorists only use lawfully obtained weapons!
Heard about this from CNBC yesterday. They were going over stock prices, then took a sec to check the commodities market. The price of wheat had been going up for 8 straight days, something that hadn't happened in a very long time. Why was wheat going up? Well, food has become prohibitively expensive in Africa. People are starving. In particular right now, there are riots in Egypt. There's speculation that the Egyptian government might buy wheat. So people are buying wheat on the market. And now on to our discussion of Verizon.
In other words, hearing about the crisis, people decided to make money off it, and, in the process, drove the price of food up even higher. Instead of, you know, helping the people who are starving because they can't afford food.
Today, the Egyptian government shut down almost all internet access in an attempt to censor information. And sent riot police and later the military to break up protests (tens of thousands of people who, by eyewitness accounts, were generally very peaceful) with tear gas, fire hoses, and more. (In other news, the price of wheat is down today.)
What is wrong with people?
Profit... at the cost of blood.
Rewatchd Iron Man on cable the other night, and realized I had forgotten the premise. Epiphanies are individual, and do not always come until a great deal of smoke clears. Our nation has on a huge number of occasions profited mightily from the blood of other people's pain.
Food is one thing we do very well. On the one hand, farmers making a profit does not seem evil. Making a gross profit, well, that is another matter. Agri-buisiness, however, is not Joe Farmer.
pgw I by no means was trying to equate us with the middle-east - just wanted to provoke a little reaction from the room and I couldn't resist. I don't disagree with your analysis of the initial basis of forming local armed militias for defense of the remote villages. One of the unintended consequences of our rapid growth and maturity as a country, is that because we have a right to bear arms and with the way the 2nd amendment is written, it has been interpreted today as way to potentially and legally put a check on our federal government. Although the Guard has National in front of it, the National Guard is a federally recognized state controlled militia. So if Obama goes Rouge, Jerry Brown could order his state militia to defend against the federal government rogueness.
Fat chance. State militia is under control of Congress-
Section 8
The Congress shall have Power... To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions
Hank,
Thanks for clarifying your intent. I had a feeling that might be the case, from the way you put it, but it was hard to be sure without nonverbal cues. Speaking of which, I hope I didn't come across as too forceful. It felt like the idea called for a strong rebuttal, but it was not directed at you personally.
And sorry for the delayed reply. The snowstorm here in the Northeast made for a long trip home.
Paul
I knew it wouldn't be long until some Tea Party kook bemoaned
the fact that Egyptian protesters aren't "armed and dangerous."
This morning on CNN, they had a picture sent in from Egypt of a tear gas cannister that had been used on the protesters. It was stamped "Made in America". Now imagine a few thousand armed Egyptians learning that, and deciding it was time to pay a visit to the US embassy to "discuss" this little gift from the good old USA. Yeah, that idea of freely-armed Egyptians looks REALLY good, right?
guy - by "Kook" did you mean that 1. I jumped the line the line and took your wave? 2. I'm not a local, so dont' surf here or 3. I am a queer bird?
Guy - sorry the above should have been directed to Bozey.
Now in response to your post. Of course the tear gas, guns, tanks are all made in the good ole U S of A. What do you think the $1.5 billion of our tax dollars to Egypt each year buys while our daily government overdrafts go up everyday? Would you rather see the cans with made in China or Russia or North Korea. C'mon don't be so naive. Our biggest exports is from defense/aerospace i.e. military jets, ships, guns, missiles. Without keeping this military/industrial complex going up, let alone declining, we would be in the toilet. Thats because this is the one of the few export industries where we are dominant and can afford to pay high union wages. We have ceded to other lower wage countries industries such as textiles, manufacturing, autos (brought to their knees just a 2 years ago) due to crush of union wages and benefits.
So in the discussions of budget cutting, defense cuts are not on the table. You don't hear any protests from the dems on this because they have defense/aerospace industries in their districts and would not be reelected if they demanded defense cuts too.
Iraq, the $3 TRILLION war. For what?
What a waste of treasure & blood. Al Jazerra, patience, special ops recon, cruise missles patiently timed & targeted, would have saved $2.99 Trillion and all that blood and devastation, not to mention Iraq's infrastructure & institutions. The cost of getting one man out of power?
Another missed opportunity by progressives to turn the table on a costly & counter productive conservative agenda and DEMONSTRATE how voters vote against their own interests.
We progressives are such an inarticulate, missed narrative, pathetic bunch when it comes to turning tables.
Reforming the Arab world appears to be quite easy... w/o much American intervention.
How come you and Uffdaguy and probably others are from Newsvine? Just clicked and found that out. Is newsvine something I should know about? Just curious. Am curious too since Newsvine is Seattle based if you are PatchesPals.
Who's "you"? Newsvine is apparently the blogging software & news highlighting site used by msnbc. Click the welcome button in the upper right of Newsvine's site. Scroll down to the bottom of this page, click msnbc's home, then in upper right Newsvine of msnbc's home page. Kind of discovered it yesterday on a deeper basis. Interesting service msnbc uses.
Unless we revise our lopsided ,failed policy on Middle East & stop shoring up oppressive regimes, we are going to lose whatever influence we have left in that region.
Middle East is vital for our economic & geo-political. Our one rut foreign policy on Israel-Palestine conflict & lack of moral courage to solve this festering issue with equitable justice, has resulted in that whole region turning hostile to America. Iraq war & then the Afghanistan debacle further aggravated that situation.
With the revolt in Tunisia, Yemen & now beginning in Egypt we now face losing regimes in strategic countries to more independant & nationalist mind-set not necessarily pro- American.
Time to rethink our policies.
The problems in the middle east is much deeper than their not having the right to bear arms. Of course none of the monarchies/symbolic "elected"(propped up Presidents) would ever allow this or any other of our cherished and taken for granted freedoms. Take it easy - there are some thin skinned posters in this room - that was a two fingered moe poke into curly's eyes. It was a joke - lighten up.
Although I do not describe myself as a tea partier - I'm more in the baileys & coffee party - I can't disagree with with their outrage at out of control federal spending by both Dems and Repubs when they controlled congress. They are taking republicans to task regarding their free spending ways when they were in control. Now back to topic before Will deletes this post.
Fundamental reason for the cluster f..k in the mid-east is that this is a barren desert land inhabited by subsistent nomadic and at times warring tribes due to the scarcity of natural resources save for the discovery of recent one and its a Duzy, petroleum. Virtually overnight, these tribes go from the stone to modern age with a tremendous gain in wealth. However the region has never achieved the sort of western democracy that we all enjoy in western europe, north america ex. Mexico, UK commonwealth countries. The Saudi king describes his rule as a benevolent dictatorship (how's that working out?). The notable exception is Israel. Jury is still out on Irag and Afgnanistan is a lost hope.
Recent Islam extremism was born in Saudi Arabia, a land of rich young men who through government oil dividend have nothing but time on their hands than to pray 5 times a day, complain about the decadence sex and violence of the US media and its undying support of Zionist Israel. So our best "friend" in the region are the Saudis, home of 15 of the 9/11 hijackers. There was one Egyptian citizen. Islam extremism will continue to ferment because these young men have no outlet to channel their energies until it erupts in unrest because they have political voice and will eventually be put down by their government. Thats why al-Qaeda is so attractive to these frustrated young men.
Never forget - this time Vodafone is complicit with the egyptian regime..
This is probably the second big provider (after Amazon with Wikileaks) to join politics without legal basis...
No good times for freedom of the internet.
Regards,
Harald K.
Is anybody else watching the events unfolding in Egypt and thinking, "Yeah, Tea Party, this is what revolution looks like and America would be so much better off if we had one"?
Ummmm... original tea party in Boston Harbor ring a bell?
This is what separates Americans from everyone else. This will be hard for some to swallow.
We are cowards! Strong statement right? Here is the history.
1. We didn't declare our independence until England was dead broke and couldn't defend themselves.
2. Washington engaged in gorilla tactics instead of fighting like a man of the time.
3. Then we went into an isolation period. Basically stuck our head in the sand.
4. It wasn't until the Japaneses attack on Pearl Harbor did we raise our heads.
5. Even then, we waited until MILLIONS were already dead.
6. Every war since then has been a war of lies AND cowardice.
Point being this, Americans would never take to the streets to protect their natural rights. They wait until it's safe to do so.
Egyptian President has spoken & he doesn't want to go.
President Obama has spoken & there was no indication that our administration wants Hosni Mubarak to go.
But that is exactly what the people of Egypt want and nothing less would do, as reporters on the ground have been telling us. This is the sentiment that has been simmering there for years.
So where is our sense of direction on democracy for the people of Egypt?
Clearly we want regimes , no matter how oppressive or undemocratic, which serve us to stay as long as it takes.
The whole world except for most of - us the American public, knows that Hosni Mubarak has been our 'man' in Cairo for decades to toe our line on Middle East issues. So for US the dilemma is to chose between a dictator & the people he has been ruthlessly ruling.
Don't worry, it is only "the Justice of Roosting Chickens"
Pay very close attention to what is happening in Egypt for it can happen in the U.S. very shortly if we continue to do what is tantamount to stealing from the poor and middle class and giving to the rich. Mark my words, it is deja vu all over again ala the French Revolution if we do not correct the tremendous inequities in our tax systems.
Kelly - you got your logic turned around. Its the rich and upper-middle class who are paying a disproportionate share of taxes. The poor do not pay any federal income taxes and in fact are disproportionate recipients of the redistribution of taxes taken from the rich - Didn't you see Russell Crowe in Robin Hood?
Au contraire mon frere; even those drawing only social security or unemployment stipends pay taxes. Those recipients of welfare stipends who work part time also pay taxes against the minimum wage salaries they earn; which BTW, reduce the amount of assistance they receive.
You may be lending too much credence to movies....
The problems in the middle East Islamic countries are numerous. The governments and people want western technology. The governments want to keep the Islamic cultlure of 500 years ago. The people are now showing what they want. An empty belly wants food; a full belly wants freedom of speech and freedom or expresion and the pursuit of happiness as that individual wishes. Most of the current governments of the middle east see this as a threat to their power and will supress the people The Islamic governments of the middle East can not create an army- police force large enough to supress the willl of the people. (Suicide bombers have shown that the people are willing to die if they think that they can take enough of their percieved enemies with them.)
Most of the schools in these countries teach enough reading to learn the Koran. These schools need to be teaching chemistry, math, physics, engenering etc so that the people will have meaning and productive occupations in their pursuit of happiness. Once the people meet these needs, then the government may be a monarchy or a democracy. The change from the current situation to the above may take a generation or more. It is up to the governments and the people how soon these chances occur and how much blood will be shed before the above changes occur in this area of the world
No thats not altogether true. These countries have a large population of highly educated and enlightened folks including women, a rich cultural heritage, a proud history, richer than ours. Engineers, doctors, scientists & such
There are institutions, colleges, universities , academies etc. Undoubtedly though the gulf between the rich & the poor has been ever widening. Freedom of expression is hard to come by so that the rulers perpetuate their rule.
We have been propping up corrupt and oppressive regimes to serve us and further our agenda.
But it seems that winds of change are gathering speed and this is the time for our leaders to show wisdom & foresight. Guage the sentiment of millions of people in that region and prepare to change our mind set which has been responsible for the mess in the Middle East.
I think, in my humble opinion, the actions by the people of Egypt could be perceived as a spark to relight the fire of the class war that has at times raged between the elites and the working class. The idea of this war should and does spread unrest in the ranks of the elite, (there are more of us than there are of you). If the Egyptian's can keep religion in check they will eventually over come the resistance of the puppet regime cobbled together by the institutions of this now failing empire. We the working class of the world should support the actions of the people of Egypt', regardless the position taken by puppets of our corporate controlled culture.
Some believe the so called "culture war" is of significance, yet the war waged by this empire against the poor, the working class, and liberty in general here and around the world has been for the most part ignored by the intellectual liberals. These events might just be a tipping point, not only for the middle east but also for the rest of the world. The actions, images and voices of the ministry of truth (owners and mouth piece's) should be held with the large amount of cynical skepticism they deserve. Stoke the fire!