Ezra Klein and our own Jamil Smith have been talking today about President Obama thanking the Philadelphia Eagles for giving Michael Vick another chance.
Klein posts this chart to make the case that we need to give people a chance when they've paid their dues to society and gotten out of prison. The president spoke up, Klein writes in part, as a way of making that point.
Which makes a ton of sense to me -- that we need to give former prisoners a level playing field, and that we fail to do that our own peril. But I think what makes people mad about Michael Vick is that he's pulling in $5.2 million a year right now. The $23,500 on Klein's chart just about covers Vick's walk to the lockers at halftime.
And granted, in the economy of the NFL, Vick is worth every penny of his $5.2 million and a whole lot more. I'm just saying he's not an ordinary mom or dad back from the pen and trying to make a go of it again.
ADDING: @blackink12 says I should point out that Vick owes more than $12 million. Fair point, and Vick has only himself to blame. I still think folks who are ready to give felons a second chance (h/t @AnaMarieCox) get less eager to do that when the second chance involves a multimillion-dollar salary.
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Embracing a dog killer -- brilliant, Obama, brilliant! Pretty much on par with embracing a criminal state... like Russia. Sometimes I wonder what Obama's core values consist of. It's pretty pathetic. And that's coming from someone who weeped for joy on election night. At the rate Obama is going, there won't be any enthusiastic base left. A bona fide moderate republican would spell trouble in 2012.
Obama called about energy efficiency in stadiums. Read, then react.
Can you give an example of what President Obama can do that would actually satisfy you? I would hasten to say that there is no such act.
Who care's what the original purpose of the phone call was? Did I miss something you read about Obama's love for Vick's energy efficiency initiative??? Please do share your reading list!
It later turned to Obama's "passion" for Vick & his comeback, as detailed by the Eagle's owner of the phone conversation. As if the torture & murdering of man's best friend was nothing of a dampener of that "passion" for Vick. Know the story, then react.
And M. Brooks... I don't have space here to write a white paper on all Obama could do to reverse the Amazon Flow of the Reagan Revolution we're still being taken out to sea with.
It's comical how a comment on his passion for Vick the Dog Killer and a criminal state of Russia... brings out his tribal defenders.
Phx - all the PEOPLE who are murdered daily & get ur panties twisted over dogs. im not condoning animal abuse, but fighting dogs must be destroyed anyway. the man did his time & is rehabilitated, plus he's helping turn young folks away fm the thug lifestyle thur his community service. buy some perspective please....
I do not believe that I have read anywhere that Mr. Obama was endorsing dog fighting. Actually I believe the conversation was about the value of getting and giving a second chance. What Mr. Vick does with the chance is up to himself. Is PHX trying to suggest that noone can change? Or that punishment should be never ending? Revenge and justice are not the same thing.
One problem with that theory Phx, you have to first find a bona fide moderate republican. Good luck with that. Secondly, why aren't you screaming your head off about that deal Halliburton made for that corrupt piece of @#$! Cheney and the bribery he was involved in, after all he broke the law, didn't he. If you ask me, Obama should have him arrested and sent to the Hague based on your thinking.
I agree with you, coach. But then I'd be deleted for being off topic here.
I clued in on the adjective attributed to Obama when the topic turned to Vick. Obama was "passionate" about Vick. We're taught algerbra in schools so we can become abstract thinkers, able to connect elementary dots. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Everyone knows what Vick is in the national discussion. A was passionate about the C... the dog killer. It's fairly elementary.
And Orrin proves their are millions out there just like Vick, same values, same logic. Suprise, suprise.
Live and let live in America? All god's creatures great & small? " Naaaaa, but I've got my NRA membership card framed and hanging on the wall!"
"millions like vick"? u mean like paying a debt then being productive? or maybe u mean to equate animals w people. sounds illuminating...
Millions, as in same value system of having little regard for life; especially innocent dependent life, like animals and children. This isn't a thread about murdered people. Lots of murdered PEOPLE at least had it coming to them via criminal on criminal violence. Do you cry for those PEOPLE? Say, "what a loss, a crime cries out for justice?" His crimes were far worse than the 25 yr to life crimes of criminals killing criminals, gang on gang violence. They're engaged with mutual intent of harm & mayhem. Your perspective simply needs a value reboot. Not sure you can buy that. This thread is alive because Obama became "passionate" about Vick. Pretty friggin sick.
Ezra needs to look into the energy use of sports arenas as well. For instance Dallas new arena uses as much electricity as Santa Monica, CA. Or you should. At any rate, Ezra's claims that Obama couldn't possibly be calling a stadium owner about the stadium's commitment to energy efficiency is not based in any fact.
This isn't an indication of my feelings towards professional athletes salaries, prisoners earnings potential, or any other issue falling into this pervue....but Micheal Vick filed a form of bancruptcy to pay for his legal defense, and money lost while incarcerated....check out what he is actually bringing in per game, as the majority of his income goes to the courts to pay his bills. Which, and I am indicating my feelings on this...is pretty cool that he didn't file a full bancruptcy to try and get out of all bills. I believe he may be the first MVP of the NFL to 'make less' than an undrafted rookie...
" But I think what makes people mad about Michael Vick is that he's pulling in $5.2 million a year right now. The $23,500 on Klein's chart just about covers Vick's walk to the lockers at halftime."
Not that it matters all that much, but the 5.2 mill is for 2 years, and it includes about 3.5 million in incentives...which if he doesn't reach, he doesn't earn. As I said...not boo-hoo'in for him...just sayin'
I am not sure why folks should be mad that he re-entered his field. I believe that folks are making too much of what he makes than the fact that he (Unlike other sports people, celebrities, and even police officers (Mehserle re. Oscar Grant) actually did served his time.
Maybe folks should actually believe that all people can do better than selecting who should be redeemed.
just saying,
M. Brooks
I really don't see how a man can commit such horrific acts, go to
prison, and come out having grown a soul.
Exactly. He went to prison for the illegality of his actions, not the soullessness of them. I imagine he left prison equally compassionless.
So?
I am very sorry for what Michael Vick did to those dogs...it angers me beyond explanation....
At the same time, part of why my brother hung himself after he left the Air Force was because he had a felony and he couldn't get any employer to take him.
What Vick did was disgusting and inexcusable, but at the same time there are many convicts out there who need a second chance. Whether or not that applies to Vick I am divided on and I'm not trying to comment on him personally (being that Vick is also a millionaire who, if not hired to work again, could live the rest of his life out just fine...people like my brother, on the other hand, only had the choice of returning to the military that messed his brain up or not working and succumbing once again to the drugs that screwed his brain up)
Pres. Obama, as noted in Klein's article, was not condoning Michael Vick's previous cruelty. To suggest that Pres. Obama is a supporter of such cruelty is absurd. Had the president said something along the lines that Michael Vick should not have gone to jail for the systematic torture of animals then it would be reasonable to make the claim that Pres. Obama supports such cruelty. The president was making a very simple yet important point that once your debt to society has been paid society should give you another chance. Haven't any of you ever heard of the "revolving door?"
"Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human lives." - A. Schweitzer
The Eagle's owner said Obama became "passionate" about Vick & his comeback. The key word here is "passionate". For a serial dog killer. It disgusts me to even link those few words together... and for Obama to be the one consumed by it of all people. He became "passionate" ... about ... a serial dog-killer. Sick beyond belief. Everything else is rationalized mumbo jumbo bs. It points to core values other than humanity. Inhumanity can somehow translate into "passion". Says more than can be imagined. Vick would make for a great Willie Horton stand-in... with floating shaped hearts & cupid in the background.
Fortunately for Dem politicos, Repubs can't make humanity one more wedge issue for their toolbelt of tricks. Sad but true. And if Obama was a Repub, you'd be seeing bleeding heart liberals PILING ON in MASS on this. As tribes, gangs do. But he's not... so they rush to his defense instead. Embarrassing.
A) you are the one making this a 'wedge' issue. I think the rules that we play by, by we I am referring to society as a whole, state that if you pay your debt to society you are in the clear. No one says you have to be remorseful or feel bad about what you've done. If you are caught speeding you don't have to feel bad about what you've done, you just need to pay the fine. Same goes for any other infraction, misdemeanor or felony. That is our legal system, deal with it.
As for president Obama's passionate remarks, if the president spoke to you about anything it would mean the world to you. You might described him as passionate, or interested in you. That doesn't mean that's how he feels. You are getting caught up on A word someone else used to describe the President, not his words but a second hand source.
Lastly I think the important part this story is Obama calling a business owner to commend them for making a clean energy investment. That deserves more focus than the semantics of a word someone else used to describe a conversation.
"Passionate" speaks VOLUMES about the phone call and why the phone call is even in the news in the first place. The Eagles' owner did NOT say Obama became "passionate" about energy efficiency or any other issue in the conversation, except Vick. Quite plausible. Thus the news story. So what if this was secondary to the call's "stated" purpose. Of course it was an excuse to talk turkey about something Obama felt more "passionate" about, while reaching out to a swing state Pennsylvania sports franchise during playoff season kickoff. An energy efficient stadium in the 21st century? Please, what else is there going to be, built on the public's dime in this energy conscience era.
Vick as an "example" of giving convicts a second chance? Give me a break; that was all about GREED, snagging a QB to better a team's plight. Greed... pursuing a multiple dog killer... and then people "rationalizing" the "good aspects" of the move. PLEASE. As if they really care or give a rip to begin with.
Becoming "passionate" about a serial dog killer is beyond the pale. Paying one's debt to society is another matter, another issue altogether. Becoming "passionate" about a serial dog killer is off the charts. Not rescuing a dog for a family pet, but to throw fame & money at the puppy mills and make the White House dog a new must-have, crank up the puppy mill production, national craze is just about as fitting, exponentializing a national disgrace. What else would be the outcome of a WH dog or cat? A choice to be a national example?! This subject of dogs, Vick, and "passion"... is pretty revealing of some of Obama's values. Regardless if he is of the same tribal politics or not.
Fine so let's say you're right, just for arguments sake, and Obama doesn't put the life of dogs high on his values / priorities list. So? I don't care. Personally I don't care for dogs, doesn't make me a bad person. It surely doesn't affect my job performance. Oh also I'd like to know where you got this public money idea from. As far as I know the new energy system is being paid for by the Eagles.
Also, people buying dogs is not a national disgrace. A national disgrace is not paying for 9 / 11 relief worker's health benefits. A national disgrace is having people deny that the President is an American. A national disgrace is starting a war based on manufactured intelligence. This is little more than semantics.
Magic Man, my bad. I should have asked you if you cared or not. Appreciate the lesson in give-a-sh*t'ism. If you don't value other life around you and you value that as somehow good, give yourself an A for self-validating rationale. A bleeding heart you're not. Post your email address so I can query you if you care or not when the other topics post; I'll know better next time. Won't bother you on saving the rain forests... that answer is apparent.
Why do you insist on focusing in on the most irrelevant points of what people say. Must I spell it out for you? Clean energy - good. Someone's opinion on how the President feels about a subject - irrelevant. President's job performance - important. President buying a dog - low priority. People's jobs, health and overall well being - high priority. Ensuring people can get a second chance in life - great.
Also don't put words in my mouth, its rude and extremely obnoxious. What I said was that I don't care for dogs and that it doesn't affect my job performance. I'm pragmatic while you are an idealist. The difference is that my line of thought will continue to move forward while yours will just stay focused on every little thing that doesn't go your way. Now that I think about it your behavior reminds me of my 6 year old more than anything else.
Clean energy? The thread topic is the Vick "thing". All of MSNBC is weighing in to boot as well. Nice try at trying to change the topic. But nobody's buying it... the conversation here is about Vick... and the newly revealed passion of Obama going out of his way to share on his xmas vacation for the Monday Night game crowd. Nobody is talking about "clean energy" on this Vick/Obama story. Except maybe you. And careful, you might be deleted here for being off topic. Think I saw a clean energy thread weeks ago; look in the archives.
Who's putting words in your mouth? You yourself said "I don't care" about life of dogs. Why are you even weighing in on the whole controversy and topic that swirls around Vick if you "don't care" about it being a rat's *ss of a value or priority? Sound like you care plenty about your give-a-sh*tism and want to instill that upon other to share as well. So look in the mirror for your 6 yr old.
Sorry, I must have missed how it doesn't affect your job performance. That would have made all the difference if you originally said so.
I believe in second chances for people. I am currently trying to sort out if he did personally hold animals underwater until they died. If that allegation is true...I have a difficult time without looking him in the eye myself and determining his remorse. The act of killing a defenseless animal repulses me to my core...I'd be hard pressed to forgive that...I've seen him express his regret and I've seen his tears...anyone can do that for a camera...some second chances may require extreme scrutiny. If Obama can forgive him without talking to him makes me wonder what's up?
I hear ya, and I'm on board. But in this case, Vick was a serial killer. And dog fighting active participant. We don't give "second chances" to serial murderers. This is no different in my book. Vick's revealed his core values & interests: killing, mayhem, and cruelty beyond words.. for sport & fun. And Obama didn't just forgive him... it goes WAY BEYOND that... he became "passionate" about Vick & his comeback. That's the words the Eagle owner used to describe Obama's conversation about the topic.
And Obama didn't rescue the family dog from the pound as he originally promised; he got him from the puppy mills. Which are another cruel and inhumane enterprise, right up there with the dog fighting enterprises. Obama is putting on display a good deal of his own value system here.
Just another politician...go figure...and I believed...
Sarah Palin goes on national TV and hits a defenseless fish with a bat and it is funny.
Sarah Palin shoots and kills a caribou or what ever animal and she is a good shot. People shoot animals for "sport" all the time and that is ok.
Married White politicians who frequent prostitutes are given TV jobs and some are even allowed to keep their jobs.
Vick goes to jail for a crime, pays his dues and is being a model citizen. Due to his success (million dollar contract), after failure many white American's are having nervous breakdowns.
This is a non issue.
Apples and oranges Tanyars...but IMHO nothing Sarah Palin does is okay with me.
Vick paid for his crime. What don't people understand? Should he be a penniless pauper for the rest of his life? Vick did not rape, kill, steal or harm any person. Why are people not outraged over the Black men shot in the back for nothing other than being Black? No one is going to jail for such HUMAN crimes. The hypocrisy by some whites is suffocating.
It is a non issue. Some Whites need to get over their envy and prejudices, just move on. Nothing at all to see here but a Black man being publicly whipped for the enjoyment of some whites.
You have made this about race. I don't see it that way. I like Mike Vick...my kid has his football jersey. If he indeed held dogs under the water until they died...repeatedly... dog after dog after dog...I'd have to talk to him personally before I could tell what kind of man he is...and if he truly regrets that...and if he's paid his dues or "for his crime". It's not about black or white...it's about killing animals.
FYI...I feel the same way about the Japanese killing whales...I don't care what color your skin is, who you worship or for whom you vote. If you can kill animals...I probably don't like you much and would totally scrutinize your rehab and if I FELT you paid for your crime. If you want to say he's being whipped because he's black by whites because they enjoy it...suggests to me you have some other agenda than the treatment of animals. I don't care who the @!$%# you are...if you kill animals for whatever reason...you are an @!$%#...but that's just me.
One's race will apparently trump any and all inhumanity issues or concerns, huh, Tanyars? You're buying into the same inhumanity... and siding with one's skin color. How big of you.
How terrible Vick should be thrown sticks and stones verbiage... and million$! Nevermind his dog killing nature or dog mayhem loving sport. Those sticks & stones in the form of words are just horrid I tell you, horrid!!
Wonder if the dogs would have minded trading places with Vick? What do you think, Tanyars? Sound like Obama's with ya on this!
What part of the law don't u understand? He served his time. He is now free to go on with his life. What part of the criminal justice laws do u lack understanding? It is as if people want to pretend the man did not pay for his crime. He did. Its over, move on.
As far as skin color how about doing something about the disparity's that exist in the criminal justice system. You so worried about dogs u could care less about the humans who are being placed in jail for long sentences.
Ever heard of the Scott Sisters? Black women sentenced to life in prison for a theft of $11.
http://www.naacp.org/campaign/scottsisters
Get off your high horse. I will start caring about dogs when Black people are no longer being treated like DOGS.
I don't know this story...but you don't know me well enough to suggest I don't care about humans. Armed robbery is a serious crime regardless of the amount involved. You hold a gun on me...doesn't matter if I give you 11 bucks or 11 million...do you know the law?
Anyway, my point remains...see #13
Like I said, Tanyars, one's race apparently trumps all else. Sadly, you scream that demonstration.
You're arguing a skin color issue in a forum that is FILLED with people of your same concern about mega injustices on an epic scale. In case you didn't notice, when the civil rights issue was pushed by LBJ in the 60's, and won on that narrow legislative front... millions and millions of racist Americans SWITCHED to becoming conservatives, republicans. Conservatism has unfortunately been in the dominant driver's seat for decades now, sadly, unjustly. Bleeding hearts pushed to the sidelines. So, many are with you in your anger. If Vick was an albino white cracker, I wouldn't give a hoot about his skin color either... HE'S A SERIAL DOG KILLER. Obama having a "passionate" thing about... about a dog killer... is a tad irksome to say the least. You're arguing for whites to have compassion for injustices... while displaying no compassion. Does not compute. But does demonstrate the common inhumane common denomiator in mankind, no?
PHx-why do u fail to admit that according to the laws of our society Vick paid his dues?
Move on. You got a quarter back in Pittsburgh who seems to have a serial problem assaulting women. Where is the outrage?
I would never kill ANY animal for sport. It is barbaric.
The media coverage of PBO, is to say the least biased. I believe none of it. I didn't hear the conversation. I doubt PBO is passionate about a dog killer. The premise is juvenile.
I would think he is passionate about people having second chances. Nothing more nothing less.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/08/4641826-hayes-no-justice-for-oscar-grant
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/09/4644632-after-oscar-grant-verdict-trains-on-time
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/11/10/5435428-regarding-oscar-grant
Some people see what they want to see.
Tanyars weighing in on a story she has no inkling of via its origins is obvious. The original story as broadcast by Peter King, an NFL sports reporter, relayed and provided the emphisis himself, that President Obama was "PASSIONATE" about Vick and his comeback. That was thee thrust of the short reporting segment, Obama's PASSION for Vick. Yeah, Peter King had a scoop.
My reaction? Obama... PASSIONATE... about a serial dog killer? Good grief, what's this world coming to. How come? Why? The president thinks a millionaire makes for a good example? About 2nd chances? Second chance at what, killing & abusing more dogs? No. Sadly, it just comes down to valued priorities. And Obama awarded NO 2nd chances personally when he passed over pound dogs, as a "passionate" example about 2nd chances. BS on the part of Obama. Proabably a whole lot more to do with a black QB doing well in the NFL.
That's all well and good ... or bad. This is still about the treatment of D O G S...I don't treat people like animals...so my horse is not so high....and I don't care if you don't care about dogs...I DO
http://www.examiner.com/pet-rescue-in-los-angeles/michael-vick-released-time-to-remember-what-vick-actually-did-to-dogs
DON't FORGET what this 'man' did--->>"The 52 pit bulls found on Vick's estate were mostly emaciated, authorities said, kept ravenously hungry so that they would eagerly assail the flesh of the dogs they met in the ring. The losing animals, the indictment said, were sometimes executed if they didn't die in the fight. One dog, the grand jury reported, was hosed down after a loss and then electrocuted."
DON'T FORGET the man was in jail and paid for his crime. Did you not know a jury convicted Vick and he served his time? Do you know that in this society that when convicted of a crime one must do the time. Vick did his time. Leave him alone.
I still believe in what I pointed out in #13 above. He did do his time...he has expressed remorse...I hope what he has in his heart is more important than the time he's done.
Please read the last paragraph of the article I linked. It deals with Oscar Grant.
http://thisweekinblackness.com/blog/2010/12/28/obama-vick-eagles/
There was a lot of twitter activity today on this subject. Here is a synopsis.
http://inthesausagefactory.blogspot.com/2010/12/obama-vick-progressives-and-journalists.html
Remember; He still owes the Falcons $23 million dollars from his bonuses he didn't fulfill. He also did two years in Supermax prison. Some of you pussies would probably break apart within 2 days. So, he did no get off scot free. Do I give a damn about dogs? Nope. Not more than humans *kanye shrug*
@Tanyars These people aren't worth reasoning wit. they think a dog is worth more than a (black) human's life. Oscar grant was gunned down. Where was the outrage? I guess he deserved to die, right? -_____-
@PhxKenster What is sufficient punishment for Vick's "crimes"? Death? It sounds like that's what you're alluding to
You may want to read rather than scan comments if you feel the need to comment. My ire from the top of this thread was directed at Obama's "passion" for Vick & his comeback. Vick did his time. But if Obama wants to weigh in with his "passion" ... then he makes himself fair game with a revealing tell tale insight into his value system in the whole mess ... all over again. And Obama waxing on about how he believes in 2nd chances rings pretty hollow in this case... as he certainly did not believe in giving pound dogs a second chance when he picked the family dog... from a horrid industry of puppy mills. And this coming from an Obama voter.
But as long as you wish to reopen Vick's punishiment for his "crimes", as if he didn't even commit any given your "quotation marks", (OJ committed no "crime" either?) Vick receiving the same serial treament he dished out on his dog for losing dog fights... and their treatment even prior.... would have been proper justice.
How you and Tanyars start bringing up black injustices as somehow the proper redirect for this thread says volumes about your own perspectives on race.
Prison sentences don't work for a lot of types of crimes...most types of crimes. You can see people aren't satisfied that Michael Vick served time. They want assurance that he's changed, and that requires rehabilitation. It would've been better had he just been sentenced to a whole lot of community service at an animal shelter.
People are socialized to treat particular animals in particular ways. And if we come to a consensus as a society that treating animals in a particular way is inhumane, then it's inhumane. But people aren't born knowing that. They're taught it. Which suggests people who commit acts of animal cruelty can be rehabilitated.
The president was not embracing Mr. Vick. He believes in second chances and was commenting on same. Do you really feel that killing animals for sport should be punishable by death....Ms. Palin was shooting foxes from a helicopter, what was that about?
Vick may have paid the prescribed price for his actions under the law, but that doesn't mean I have to forgive him, ever. I don't really give a damn about his football skills, he abused animals for fun and profit and is forever a pariah in my eyes. Spitting on him would be a waste of spit.