And there it is. Thank you! :)

It should be the Televangelist Schtupping Matrix. It would be funnier if you changed it to reflect that rather than "infidelity". I was laughing so hard watching the program. Keep up the good work.

Swing and a miss

Obviously, but that's an imperfect metaphor. It's not about "all Christians." It's about hypocrisy. Let's say they put another column to indicate what rank the televangelist held in televangelist-ratings for the year of their infidelity - I think that would go far in homing in on the real issue.

Yes or add the democrat presidents, you know those of such high integrity and good character!

Sawing and a miss (again)

TV evangelists are a special breed. Or they seem to think they are. No, I know lots of Christians, and then I know some "Christians." True Christians do great deeds and follow in the footsteps of that cool Jew, Jesus. They are humble and don't need to brag about their works or shill for money. Many of these televangelists say they are preaching their gospel, but they are hypocrites. I think it was obvious that Maddow, who I believe comes from a Catholic family to whom she is still close, was talking about the hypocritical nature of televangelists and not the beliefs and deeds of the majority of Christians.

Thank you!

@ susanb-2002839

Very Well said, BRAVO (Brava?)!

I think there are bad apples ini every bunch. But what is hypocritcal to me, is that those on this blog (and on the left), criticize those that call out the muslims who terrorize the country, perform honor killings, stone women, encourage the death penality for gays, and the left defends them.

The left likes to pick on Christianity. But lets see the muslim matrix and religious leaders who claim to be peace loving but instigate the killing of thousands. Won't happen!

I don't think you are paying attention, Katy. I've never seen anyone here defend terrorists or extremist Muslims (Islamists).

But just as Christians expect Americans to differentiate mainstream Christians from hypocritical televangelists and right wing extremists like abortion murderers, Muslims expect Americans to differentiate between mainstream Muslims and terrorists who perform heinous acts in the name of Islam. If you can't see the parallel, then you aren't paying attention.

FWIW, I'm Jewish, and I condemn terrorist acts against the US or Israel or any other nation in the name of Islam. But I also see great value in reaching out to mainstream Muslims - the three Abrahamic religions have much common ground, and it's time we found it, in the name of peace and sanity.

Gee, where to start...serve God, serve money. Can't to both. The eternal infinite and absolute were solvent...hell and gone from ANYWHERE resembling broke last time I heard. And yet these montebanks ALWAYS have their hand out saying Jesus needs your money. Who's taking the Lord's name in vain?

Also, what about the Spanish Inqisition, the Crusades (and the countless massacres of Jews that it sparked,) the Witch-hunts and Witch-trials here in America. The tacit support of the church for the institution of slavery, black codes, Jim Crow, lynching of blacks, continued demonization of gays, Jews, Muslims, pagans, the continued subjugation of a woman's reproductive rights. All in the name of a man who said love your neighbor, love your enemy. As you do for the least of them, you do it for me. As you do it to the least of them, you do it to me.

Don't get me wrong, I love Christ and Christians. But mostly what I see are Pharisees with lumber and nails looking for the next crucifixion being herded by television snakeoil salesmen saying that Jesus needs money.

Yeah, it always cracks me up when televangelists get busted and the faithful get that look at the con man behind the curtain who'd been hustling them with a straight face for so long. Its hilarious.

Yay Don's back ;-)

Hey Mouser, I've really missed you kid! I tried to email you. My computer was sick for a couple of months, I was in a mild earthquake. I got reacqainted with my PS2. My back went out and I just turned 40.

How are you and yours? Did your move go well?

Ya you and a couple others e-mailed me I just haven't gotten around to writing back. I'm workin on it lol

Susan, butI don't see anywhere on these posts the word extremist with the word Christianity. Is it in the matrix? Does it distinquish at all between most Christians and the few bad apples. No just a bunch of Christian haters!

If the left wants to distinguish extremist elements from others, then why don't they do it when talking about Christians!

But, truthfully, they aren't killers. And, have done nothing more than our democratic President Clinton, who was married, made promises and vows to his own wife. Has one of these men flew a plane into a building killing thousands? As Christians we all admit we are sinners and don't claim perfection. Only Jesus was perfect! It is sad when those Christians in the public view do things like this, because it affects the attitudes others have about all Christians.

Additionally, knowing what is the right thing to do and always doing it are two different things. Not necessarily hypocritical, but just human nature. When you set your standards high, you aren't going to succeed all the time. What they preach is what God says and that is constant even if they fall short.

So certainly those that have lower standards enjoy when others fail. But what I see is a certain judgement coming from the left that they don't hold each other to.

Swing and a miss

Sorry, looks like I threw you a curve ball, the swing and miss is yours!

No actually you're making a red herring argument. It was a logical fallacy the first time you put it forward and it's going to be a logical fallacy every time you put it forward. Good try though.

Ah baseball, love to watch from the sidelines, but can resist a good field rush. Right down the middle, Mouser. Strike 3!

Speaking as a Christian, it is not a reflection of lower standards to call out these hypocrites. I know atheists with stronger moral and ethical will than some religious folk. If someone, like a preacher, priest or reverend--whatever title you like--is going to presume to speak for God, they'd better be prepared to walk the walk. Yes, we are all sinners. Yes, there was and always will be one Jesus. But to represent yourself as holy person and then have this double standard when it comes to your own behavior is just plain wrong. I see Bill Clinton--who was not a preacher--is mentioned above. If we want to play tit-for-tat, then Newt Gingrich, please go to confession and stay there for the 200+ years it is going to take for you to confess all of your sins--just be nice enough to bring sustenance for the priest. That's what we good Catholics are taught to do. Maybe that should be a condition of being hailed by the Knights of Columbus.

Beware the false prophet(s). They're everywhere.

And David Vitter and John Ensign and Mark Sanford and Pallidino.

While I agree that those there is definitely a greater responsibility for those in the public arena, that profess to live a Christian life, to ensure they are walking the walk. What I disapprove of is when we apply a double standard to the jounalistic treatment of some religions and not others. Rachel has been very protective of the muslim community (as most on the left) but constantly criticizes Christians without any appropriate disclaimer.

Home Run!

It's still a red herring Katy. You aren't addressing the issue at hand you're attempting to scape goat the issue to the Muslim community. And since the issue at hand is that these guys were doing wrong, you have already agreed to it. So A. you've admitted Rachel was correct in the point she was making and then B. you've attempted to redeem yourself by talking about something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I swear people have the attention spans of gnats.

Home Run!

Uh-oh. Not so fast there with the home run. Looks like the ball hit the right field pole and bounced farther right into the stands. That is what we call a foul ball....

What would be the appropriate disclaimer? Should Rachel say "I report to you tonight on yet another Christian hypocrite who cheated on his wife and his followers. I regret to inform you that I do not have an equal and opposite report on any Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Jewish, Buddhist, Alien worshippers etc, etc, adulterers, because no reports of such have been brought to our attention"? Would that suffice? Why single out the Muslims?

As for the scapegoat, Mouser, this should bring a smile to your face--keeping with the baseball theme:

http://mybrewers.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/04/even_alou_doesnt_blame_bartman.html

As for the tit-for-tat by religious folk, let the great Monty Python explain the silliness of hating for you. DISCLAIMER: the F-bomb gets dropped. Guard the little ears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

I love you MG ;-) That was awesome

In fact I am calling Rachel out on her pick for the news (using the term lightly of course). I think you guys know the "score"! Rachel is way out in "left" field on this one. Who really cares what Mr. Lamb does or any of the other TV evangelist for that matter. I really don't hear anyone else talking about this. Just another cheap shot for Rachel.

I think we have already heard about the muslims who are training the terrorist withint their mosques. Didnt hear it from this blog, but nonetheless.

LOL Katy. You just want your red herring to be valid, don't you? Sorry but when you say to the cop "why are you pulling me over for speeding when all these other people are speeding?" it never becomes that you aren't a. admitting to the crime and b. that you aren't trying to scapegoat. You may get upset with the police officer for ticketing you after you gave the argument, but at the end of the day you still confessed to the crime. At the end of the day you still tried to excuse your behavior even when you knew it was wrong. O well. Baseball metaphors don't really work when the batter is blind, deaf, and refuses to admit either condition.

Thank you Katy, I was feelin' a little of the blues and needed a laugh. =D RE: Your tail spin attempt: That's such ancient propaganda! Petrified poo-poo. ROFL There's a treasure of newer material the right has been pulling out of their ... uh...the air you could have picked from. I mean...really.

Sleep well all.

If the majority religion in America was Islam, or Shintoism, or Wicca we would be equally critical because 1) hypocrisy must be rediculed when exposed and 2) this is America. This is not Europe during the Dark Ages (When Muslim nations were at their peak as civilization incidentally,) where the church IS the state. This is America. Freedom in America means freedom from sacred cows. That's the way the founders intended it. If televagelists, or any other minister, doesn't want to be publicly pilloried and rediculed when the are caught without their pants while they are preaching hate and intolerance, then they'd better just keep their pants on, yeah?

Interesting....you see my point is that it doesn't really matter if its a religion shared by the majority or the minority, but the hyprocisy is on the left when they don't address them with the same vigor. The muslim relgion is relevant (even if the minority in THIS country), but it is in the name of this religion that so many of us find ourselves being groped at the airports, afraid to open packages in the mail, and under the constance threat of terrorist acts.

I have to say, that I don't know that any of those listed have preached hate and intolerance. Do you have a reference for that? But disagreeing and hating or two different things! Not wanting public policy to reflect something you disagree with is not hating.

Look, I think it is terribly sad when Christian leaders do the wrong thing. This kind of misconduct has the most profound effect on non believers. It is wrong, and they have an even greater responsibility to walk the walk. But to see the glee on this blog for another human's mistakes is also sickening. For a "liberal" group that exhalts itself for being so compassionate and caring, I would say that the reaction on this blog exposes you guys more than the TV evangalists!

The religion of the minority (Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism.) Don't impact American life to the same degree...nor are their members so empowered that they feel they have license to drag our nation back decades if not centuries, or post stone monuments detailing their equivalent of the ten commandments outside American courthouses. The Christian stance at the forefront on American life - which would not be as big a deal if the church actually followed footseps of the man it claims to, which it most certainly does not - qualifies it as a legitimate target.

People who claim to speak for God take His name in vain because it is rare that ANY of the speak as Jesus spoke - they would be crucified in a heart beat if they did. I've seen it happen. Carlton Pearson deviated from the script and put out a message of inclusion, which I felt was much more in keeping with what I understood Christ's message was. The reception he got from his peers would have been warmer if he had called for the bashing out of childrens' brains with rocks in the name of God. Oh, you generation of vipers!

Secondly, Timothy McVeigh was not a Muslim. The Unabomber was not Muslim. The Anthrax Letter attacks came from this side of the Atlantic and most likely not sent by Muslims. The Hutaree Militia were not Muslim. The people who kill abortion providers are not Muslim. The men who killed Matthew Sheppard were not Muslim.

9/11 had far more to do with CIA interference in the Russo/Afghan War (Osama bin Ladin was trained by the CIA you'll recall) than it did with the Islamic religion - and Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11.

Just like how the CIA deposed the Shah of Iran and put the Ayatollahas in power who promptly took Americans hostage. You remember that?

Yeah, let's go there!

Ditto!

Well, maybe Beck. Or Boner.

Swaggert wins for Most Tears.

Beck wins the Tears of a Clown Award (see the current book).

Rachel, awesome matrix and segment.

Yep, I think Swaggart wins it for tears (did you hear the women sniffling in the background in sympathy?).

Hypocrisy-wise, I think the guy who was indiscreet "with someone who wasn't a man" that was reputedly "a Christian woman" wins. Then again, Beck is the one who displays images of the Founding Fathers and the words "Faith" "Hope" and "Charity" in one of his sets, yet regularly spews all that fearmongering stuff about Nazis. Ugh.

What a circus. PT Barnum would be proud! *<:O)

Beck and all who follow him are idolators. The Founding Fathers were all guided by God. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are all holy documents "I held the Declaration of Independence in my very own hands!"

The religion? Nationalism. That's the Nazi in National Socialism. Baaahaaaa.

I think you are missing the point, Tmp1...

Rachel is rightly calling attention to the chatter about how this latest infidelity scandal is okay because it was with a "woman" (a "seemingly Christian" woman? Funny that the man's Christianity wasn't questioned, or did anyone else catch that?). Here is the thing, when a group builds their religion on the bullying of people who are different from them, rather they are trannies, or Muslim, or gay, and that group is led by men with deep ethical imperfections... well they get called on it.

Instead of defending those men as "Christian", perhaps you should be deriding their self professed ability to judge others, because there is nothing "Christian" about these people.

Tmp1, you are wise to be skeptical of the purpose of this post. Especially when there is no added commentary. I did not catch tonight's show but will go back and see if it added context.

There are so many comments here I would like to respond to but it would probably fall on deaf ears. Christians encounter the same problems and failures as everyone else and I know few who pretend otherwise.

There are also some in ministry who are not who they pretend to be. Like many professions, like politics, charity work, and even journalism, some are working for their own benefit and not the cause they purport to support.

This post is sad and borders on bigotry, IMHO.

Some of the loudest opponents of marriage equality are also those that would abuse marriage in general...I believe that was the point Rachel was making. Or maybe rather she just wanted to comment on the overall hypocrisy of a person who claims to be Christian and following the word of Christ by 'denouncing others' whom then himself engages in 'un-Christlike' acts...the very same which he denounced earlier....

Oh, I get it. Like the muslims who pretend to be peaceful people but plow planes into buildings. Can we get a muslim matrix?

Red herring

Sure. http://twitpic.com/3c3dm7

I apologize for not wasting my photoshop skills on this.

LMAO I love you br4pz! Dunno who you are but you get a big /hugs from me! (hope hugs are ok with ya)!!!

br4pz, that was a cute graphic and funny, too. Why did I find it amusing and not this post or Ms. Maddow's segment (which I now have seen)? Your graphic says without explicitly saying it, the Muslim religion is a serious faith held by many good people and should not be confused with those whose actions are meant to be hurtful.

Ms. Maddow and TRMS did not do the same for the Christian faith. Ms. Maddow even added a sarcastic "hallelujah" at the end of her show as if to mock the Christian faith.

I think Katy264 makes a point, although not the one she may have intended. You would never see Ms. Maddow doing a segment on radical Muslims helping her audience keeping them straight. If she did, she would certainly make clear that these were NOT representative of those who make up the majority of Islam.

She afforded Christians no such disclaimer.

The chart or her segment does not offend me. I do not give that power away to people unless I know them well and they know me. It does sadden me. Coming from a professional journalist, I think it is sad.

WB you claimed you were mad before when I attacked such comments so honey- it's all yours *puurs* ;-)

@ br4pz

Perfect!

Oh gawd no Mickey, not mad at you sweet - in fact, not even possible, ever - I'm feeling rather in the taking-it-all-in mood, especially yours baby girl, so gfi...and *purrs* back at ya ;)

@RobDon: I really don't think this segment is meant to tar all Christians. Ms. Maddow doesn't even use the word "Christian" in her piece. She was talking about Televangelists, people who use their faith and more specifically their moral character as credentials in order to preach to people and make money off it. I think Ms. Maddow is interested in calling out the dishonesty in selling yourself as something you're really not, and the hypocrisy in condemning other people for what you do behind closed doors. If there was a Muslim equivalent for televangelists in America, maybe we would see a segment calling out their dishonesty and hypocrisy, but that equivalent, as far as I know, doesn't exist.

Every person I know (when this topic has come up), thinks all televangelists are a joke. Humans make mistakes and best action misjudgements, but it doesn't come across that any of them actually believe what they preach. That statement from the marriage counselor made me nauseous. He should apologize to the profession for being one of them.

Organized religion should take a lesson from small churches who funnel resources into humanitarian work (indiscriminately and without forced ministry) and higher education while maintaining humble real property. It seems more and more those are the ones trying to understand issues and progress as a faith. They just aren't seen or heard from on a larger scale.

Ms. Maddow doesn't even use the word "Christian" in her piece.

She does, if I recall correctly, especially at the beginning identifying Christian broadcasting networks. I agree that many, maybe most, TV evangelist seem to be less than upfront, even shady, characters. I do not think the represent the majority of Christians. That is the point.

I'm not pretending that there is a Muslim equivalent. My point was that if she, or anyone on the Left, started talking negatively about a segment of Muslims, she would go out of her way to point out it was not representative of the faith as a whole.

And, locknpost,

Organized religion should take a lesson from small churches who funnel resources into humanitarian work (indiscriminately and without forced ministry) and higher education while maintaining humble real property.

I could not agree more. Many small churches (and to be fair, many large churches) are not in it for the "show." They genuinely care about hurting people and work to comfort and help.

Again, I just wish Ms. Maddow had not seem so gleeful in her assessment of peoples failures and that she would have differentiated these individuals from the larger body of believers.

To speak plainly RonDon, I get the impression most no longer believe or want to believe in discourse or diversity (not speaking physically). There are exceptional individuals I have seen that I admire and am trying to learn from. But generally, acceptance and tolerance in this melting pot is less than encouraging. Perhaps it will return when people are no longer feeling the stress of the past recession or frail legislation.

Dylan Ratigan had an interesting guest on today at the end of his show, about leadership qualities. He surprised me, pleasantly. I recommend it, for I think you will "get" it.

Word of caution, I only caught last snipet of it first time.

@RobDon: You got me on that one, she did use the word "Christian" to identify the channels these Televangelists appear on. I agree that most Televangelists seem like shady characters, mostly because they are, in general, notorious product pushers, and I just don't think that useless trinkets have anything to do with the (in my case, Catholic) faith. Churches usually give out rosaries for free, and that's really all you need.

I don't think that anyone who watches TRMS believes that Televangelists represent Christians as a group. Christians make up the majority of religious people in North America and I think it's safe to say that everyone knows one, if not several, or are Christian themselves. So Christians don't need that "disclaimer"; the fact that Ms. Maddow didn't make any comments or generalizations about Christians as a group should be enough. Muslims, however, don't have the benefit of being in the majority, and thus don't have as loud a voice to defend themselves with. Many people do not know even one Muslim person, and that can have a huge impact on one's views of a group of people. My friend thought that gay people were disfunctional and hell bound before she met me. She didn't know any gay people, and only knew what her school and church taught her. Similarly, many people have nasty views of Muslim people, because all they know about them is what they see on TV, which is largely suicide bombers and angry mobs. People often need to be told that only a small number of Muslims subscribe to these attitudes; people don't need to be told that not all Christians are like Televangelists. They know that already.

Christians make up the majority of religious people in North America and I think it's safe to say that everyone knows one, if not several, or are Christian themselves. So Christians don't need that "disclaimer"...

Many people do not know even one Muslim person, and that can have a huge impact on one's views of a group of people.

She didn't know any gay people, and only knew what her school and church taught her.

Excellent observations and all very valid points. I guess it's the case of "why are you picking on me" syndrome. Intellectually I know Christians make up the huge majority of people of faith in this country and most are not "haters" or shady individuals.

It does seem, though, that the Christian faith has become a huge target for the Left despite Christian's charitable efforts. Christians are not just their views on homosexuality (although I am learning more about the impact that has) but are good people trying to live their life in a manner that demonstrates their faith and communicates the grace and mercy they've been extended.

I'll try to remove roll back my sensitivity meter. Thanks, Girl.

Remember also, if I may, that many Democrats and liberals are also Christian.

@RobDon: I understand that it sometimes hurts to hear criticism of something that you identify with and is important to you, especially when it seems to be constant. Many of the headlines in the news today about Christians and Churches are far less than favorable, and the Left is particularly critical. But we can't forget that Christian Churches and religious figures have a lot of power, resources, people, and money in North America; they are major players and don't always use their powers for good. But the national headlines never cover the local stories unless they are "newsworthy" to the rest of the country; giving, compassionate Christians and Churches are the norm, and therefore not newsworthy. Mouser brings up a good point that many liberals are Christian, so they know that Christianity is mostly a force for good in the world. The Christian vote leans pretty liberal in Canada; only 36.5% of them voted Conservative in the last election, with the rest of the vote being split up among the left wing parties. This is what happens when you let a Canadian comment on your blog; you get random facts about Canada that no one needs to know. xD

This is what happens when you let a Canadian comment on your blog; you get random facts about Canada that no one needs to know.

To the contrary: Canada offers tested solutions for us to study and learn from.

Random fact: Canadian search and rescue were among (if not "the") first to arrive at Katrina; but we (USA) were not logistically prepared. We do not forget. #goodneighbors Appreciate the sharing, always.

@locknpost: Really? Cool, I didn't know that. We don't forget the times our Neighbours to the south have helped us out either; a few northern states sent people up to Ontario and Quebec to help repair damaged power lines and roads when the ice storm of 98' hit. Americans helped save many people from dying of starvation and hypothermia, including many members of my family; many thanks are due. <3

@Girl from Ontario, We have rescued canine transplants from Katrina in area. They are a valuable source of info. ;)

'98 ice storm? EEEK Glad all worked out for the better. And I thought Canada had no worries with power blackouts such as us. #someCanadianbragged #mothernaturethrewcurveball

@locknpost: xD Where I live we generally don't encounter black outs, unless so much freezing rain falls that hydro towers fold in half and power lines snap, which is what happened in the ice storm of 98'. Mother nature definitely threw a powerful curve ball that year! You should look up the pictures online, they are really something. Do you live near where Katrina hit?

@Girl from Ontario, Wow, lots of footage and economic impact info as well. Here, you deserve a tshirt---http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/1998_Ice_storm_shirt.jpg

N California

As my teachers used to say "Please Show Your Work"!

Now THIS is what I like to see! Its is good to post what The Man actually said as opposed to what Conservative talking meat puppets are putting out. The absolute best rebuttal to "Christian" arguments are the words of Christ themselves. By that measure tis only a handful who claim that title that will escape perdition.