The Good Men Project has a great piece by Aaron Gouveia where he writes about his experience confronting anti-abortion activists and catching the confrontation on video.
He and his 16-weeks-pregnant wife went to a women's clinic in Brookline, Mass. for an abortion after discovering that their baby had a congenital deformity with no chance for survival. On their way in, they were confronted by images of dismembered fetuses and two women yelling, "You're killing your unborn baby!" Enraged, Gouveia decided to confront the protesters while his wife was in surgery, and he caught the whole interaction on his cellphone. (H/T to Salon.com's Tracy Clark-Fiory and Steve Cooks for the link)
Tonight, a special msnbc documentary at 9 p.m. ET, "The Assassination of Dr. Tiller" delves into the divisive topic of anti-abortion activism, and whether an "atmosphere of hatred" contributed to Scott Roder's murder of Dr. George Tiller last year.
"Anti-abortion forces have succeeded in restricting the availability of abortion through lots of means short of outright prohibition — everything from punitive regulations... to physical intimidation and harassment of abortion providers," says Rachel Maddow in this Q+A about the documentary.
"Harassment, intimidation, and violence shouldn't be confused with the noble tradition of American protest — they're crimes, and they should be investigated and prosecuted as such."
Rachel notes that at least five Republican candidates for U.S. Senate -- Joe Miller, Christine O'Donnell, Rand Paul, Ken Buck, Sharron Angle -- have endorsed not just the criminalization of abortion, but criminalization so strict that they would not allow abortion to be an option even for women who were impregnated as a result of rape or incest.
Watch video of Rachel on TODAY this morning talking about the upcoming midterms and the documentary.
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My heart breaks this pregnancy didn't work out for Aaron and his wife and they had to deal with this salt being tossed on their wound as well. No sympathy for those cold-hearted ladies though - when confronted with truth and logic, they clam up or want to call cops.
Hooray for that young man. Those protestors make my stomach churn. I'd love an opportunity to tell them what I think of their demented dogma. They all look alike, too. Their faces all look mean and meaner.
How dare they harass and intimidate in a situation that is a private and usually painful decision. Their stupid signs make me see red.
*Rant over*
Well done Mr Gouviea.Im sure his wife & he were having a dreadful day before they were screamed at by these idiots.They are totally immersed in their own beliefs which are not base in fact or reality & have no compassion at all for anyone who is forced into this heart rending position for any reason.
The fact that late term abortion is suddenly the most "controversial" abortion procedure tells you not only all you need to know about the right wing's inability to see real human women in the pregnancy equation, but also the stranglehold they've managed to achieve over the discourse.
The late-term abortion doesn't technically have the villian that the anti-choice like to blame abortion on. The woman isn't a "slut who deserves to be punished" with a child because it was often a wanted pregnancy, often within the bonds of holy matrimony. It isn't about selfishness, in fact, going through the procedure is an act of mercy for everyone -- fetus included. After all, the longer the fetus stays in utero and develops, the more its nervous system is going to develop and the more it's going to be able to feel pain--and in a case where the suffering is just going to increase until the inevitable death, it is a mercy for all that this procedure was available to them.
So instead, the anti-choice invent their own narrative -- how the doctor is making money off of a procedure that will bill for a fraction of what s/he could bill for assisting a live birth. How terminating the pregnancy is somehow a violation of God's will except that if it were God's will that the pregnancy be carried to term God might have done better than to give the fetus a terminal disorder. And what it comes down to in the end is that by abortion, you're somehow invalidating God's omnipotent powers (however that's supposed to work) and preventing Him from demonstrating His amazing omnipotent powers by miraculously saving the fetus at the 11th hour. Because, while there's no way that they would want themselves or their daughter on the other end of this divine Russian Roulette that is God's Miracle Fetus Solution, they are more than happy to have other women suffer in the hopes that one of these days God will come through and make everything better.
Aaron is an amazing man. These people are jackasses. They know NOTHING about the situations they protest and yell about. Those jerks think that women who go in for an abortion are happy about it? Why make them feel more crappy about an already crappy situation? They see abortion only as a black or white issue, and have zero regard to the huge amount of gray area, due to lacking gray matter in their skulls, I guess.
Mr. Gouviea is a gutsy man and I applaud him for confronting these idiots and telling them the truth, not that they'd ever listen. And for them to threaten to call the cops? What, only they can harass others? If you can give it, you damn well better be able to take it too.
I just don't know that he accomplished anything by screaming at them. Then again I don't know what could have been accomplished. I don't blame him for reacting the way he did, I just don't know that he solved anything.
There is one other point I would like to argue that sort've extends off of Ponygirl's comments- the idea that you can know what it is God wants. My grandma always said that God has given us the capability to reason and that capability has allowed us the inventions we have in today's world. Which means presumably God wants an abortion clinic to exist just as readily as he does an ER hospital. It's impossible for us to know as individuals what actions we should and shouldn't be taking on behalf of God. We can act in ways that we feel will help us reach God, but actually "doing his will" leads to a pretty ambiguous situation. How to anti-abortion protesters know that it isn't God's will that those fetuses be aborted? Maybe he wants that select group of women to abort. Maybe that's his choice. This would, of course, mean the opposite is true too- that God also wants people to be outside protesting a clinic that he also presumably could want to exist. Again the point here being that judging what God wants you to do is a pretty slippery slope, no?
Well said Laura_S. These two women are self righteous and offensive. Mr. Gouvia is well spoken and quite civil to such narrow minded people. I wish I could think "on my feet" as well as he did.
Many cudos to him, his wife and his family.
P. S. I wish the cops would have come and given the protesters both tickets for jay walking,... they have no business being out in the street.
Mouser – he wasn’t “screaming at them”. Review the tape. In fact, while his words are strongly focused on communicating back the hate and hurt these two women are leveling at total strangers, as well as both he and his wife, he remains admirably cool under the circumstances. And, as far as what he accomplished…for real? He accomplished standing up for his wife and his overall beliefs, as well as lead by example for a community under siege, by answering their hateful/hurtful actions with in fact a rather well put together response. What these women are doing is no different than gay bashing/bullying, and just like gay bashing/bullying, it should not go unanswered – you do not walk quietly by a gay kid getting gay bashed/bullied anymore than you walk quietly by these women doing something similar to the patients/families/caregivers of this abortion clinic. Of course, the manner in which one responds is important, but a response to this hateful/hurtful action is critical if there is any hope for bringing a community/society together to eventually eradicate this abhorrent and hateful behavior by these deviants of society. Letting these kinds of people operate unanswered is what elevates and keeps them empowered. It’s also pretty obvious his actions are not just actions derived from his own families personal hurt - he video taped the exchange and distributed it - he obviously felt no one, not just he and his wife, should have to go through this, and by letting the rest of society see this kind of exchange, I’m pretty sure he was hoping to rally others around this better cause…
As far as God…as far as I’m concerned, that’s likely the biggest reason for why these the wing nut wack jobs feel so empowered – personally, I can do with leaving God out of any of the ‘justifications’ for either side…I totally prefer the separation of religion and governmental policy.
P.S. Welcome to the west coast! (geting rained on enough yet are you!? (saw the storm system))
I guess screaming was a bad word choice there, I stand corrected. I said screaming because that's what I interpret those women as doing. I see their actions as harassment- to him, to his wife, to everyone else involved. But you're right he wasn't going ape [expletive] or anything. He was angry yes, but uncontrolled no and I didn't mean to give that impression.
I just feel like this is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. If he doesn't say anything then it makes it appear as though the anti-choice activists are doing God's work and blah blah blah. If he does respond then he vilifiesthem because of his anger. You heard the women at the end say that he's an angry father right? That woman didn't listen to a thing he had to say and immediately shut down conversation in order to avoid a clash with her world view. I bet when she goes home and talks amongst her friends and family, all of whom I'm sure have been self-screened to agree with her current look at reality, they'll vilify that his anger represents why what they are doing is so important. In which case he may have just added more reason for those women to go out and protest. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't know what the answer is to such a situation. They shouldn't be allowed to harass his family. They shouldn't be allowed to show pictures of dead fetuses to struggling women (or to anyone really). They shouldn't be allowed to make access to abortion clinics harder. Maybe by sharing his video with the world he'll add more emphasis on debate and deter people who might otherwise protest outside of a clinic to think twice. But I highly doubt it. My belief is this is such a dug in issue. It's like trench warfare and I don't really know how you move the flag. I just don't know.
As for the God comment- yeah that's what I was kind've getting at. No one can know, all anyone can do is have faith. So why the hell would you ever force your beliefs onto someone else? Separation of church and state. But then again- see here's why I get so depressed about it- these people actually believe that the 1st Amendment doesn't exist. Ya know? How do you even begin a conversation with someone who refuses to acknowledge the establishment clause? I just dunno.
It's rained for I think 3 or 4 days straight now. And it's coooooooollllld. I am going to have to buy more hoodies. I also didn't realize that it was so much dryer here than Chicago. I have been coughing non stop (need to get a humidifier). O well, it is very very pretty at the least. =)
MM, it's not always about making a wider difference. Sometimes it's just about preserving your sanity and defending your humanity against the hateful and hurtful. Expressing anger is one way to do that. |=) On that level I'd call it a success.
Yeah. I wasn't trying to imply he doesn't have a right to stand up for his family or that he shouldn't do it. I just don't know that you can change minds and to that end I don't know if we'll ever be able to accomplish getting peace on this issue. And without that how many more families are going to have to go through what he and his family went through? It just depresses the hell out of me. My heart goes out to his wife and to what the both of them were going through- as well as to all the other women who didn't have someone there to defend them. Sighhhhs.
Mouser,
It's not about changing minds - it's about changing behavior. These horrific people will likely go to their grave believing what they do - and, I frankly don't care (may they all burn in their self realized religious hell for all I care). It's about changing what is allowed in society - these people being able to intimidate, threaten, inflict hurt/harm is what needs to change - women should be able to get abortions, for whatever their reasons are, in a safe and secure manner - doctors/caregivers should also be able to provide these women this service in a safe and secure manner. I think the peace you are talking about comes when a majority of society insists on these rights and takes appropriate action, and the fringe of any movement seeking to disallow people these rights will then end up on the receiving end of our legal system once we initiate proper legal protections...to that end, we all need to speak up, confront, and demand these rights/protections.
I'm still in amazed Oregon (Portland?) can out cold Chicago - for real!? I spent a couple years in a suburb of Portland Or and I was like Ok even as a warm blooded California native - I think that cold front you are experiencing is just messing with you right now. I'm positive, wait it out a bit and you'll see it gets better than Chicago in winter for sure.
Lol I think it's the humidity issue: but maybe it is a cold front too. I don't know. Maybe it's cause this is the first time since I was 18 that I've had to live alone. I think part of what I'm feeling is some weird physical projection of my emotional coldness...if that makes sense.
Anyways I really wish these people weren't allowed to protest outside of clinics. How does such a protest not violate a woman's right to privacy (or any person's right to privacy, for that matter)? If I went outside of a cancer clinic and protested people would be outraged, but when it's done here suddenly it's okay?! I just don't get it; I don't like it what-so-ever. I want to work to reduce the number of abortions, but I don't want to do so in a way that intimidates, harms, threatens, demeans, or denies rights to women. It seems insane to me that we have to make the conversation into such desperate straights, ya know? Why can't we allow women to legally and safely seek this medical procedure and instead focus on education and the expansion of planned parenthood centers. I just don't get it. I wish police would spend more time keeping women who seek abortions safe instead of imprisoning black people on drug charges, ya know? It all seems pretty backwards to me. On your last point:
I couldn't agree more
Mickeymouser -- I think you've got one heck of a smart Grandma!
I admire the way you reduced the "what God wants" narrative down to the end --
I've always wondered how some people seem to "know" what God wants. I believe it's what they want, and they just project it onto God.
Since nobody will ever know for sure, why not just practice the Golden Rule. That way, everybody benefits.
I really would like to organize a demonstration at abortion clinics like Romaine Patterson did at Matthew Shepard's trial to shield the women who are going in.
There's absolutely no reason for protesters to harass women who have already had to make one of the most difficult decisions of their lives.
'Love thy brother'...yeah, and when he/she is most in need, turn your back on them and accuse them of murder. Nice.
Look around your area. Many women's groups do stage counter protests like the kind you're talking about. If not that, then you can volunteer as a clinic escort (walking women in and out of the building as moral support).
If I'd live in the US, I would definitely volunteer as a clinic escort. I live in Switzerland, where there are no "abortion clinics", just normal hospitals which perform abortions, ergo no protesters, since they wouldn't know which women got an abortion. What I wrote above, is just the gut reaction I have every time I hear, read or see such news.
Ah, gotcha.
It's people like these that cause gay kids to kill themselves. I'm sure the disgusting irony is lost on these people.
Is it too much to ask to have compassion? instead these horrible protesters turn their back on him once they know the truth of Aaron's plight. talk about bull-headed blinders.
I have tears in my eyes because I know how it feels to be screamed at by these rotten people, they are so righteous, so judgmental. I wasn't even going into a Abortion clinic, but a X-Ray clinic that happened to be in the same building. they just assumed... then didn't apologize when they knew the truth.
Aaron's wife was in a terrible state having to live with the knowledge that her baby was not healthy, then have to deal with these rotten people who just assumed, just assumed. Kudos to Aaron, and his wife. I hope they go onto have the healthy family they want.
It was apparent to me these women really didn't know why they were out there...no valid argument...no justification ....no life!
Wasn't it at a clinic in Brookline back in the 90's that several people were shot by some "Good Christian?"
I know it's wrong, but there's a part of me that would like to see how these women would react to seeing their faces passed around on wanted posters, with their names, addresses, phone numbers and a nice bulls-eye over them.
And the way that one woman was so nasty to him when he explained why she needed it done, "Why isn't she in the hospital then?", was just insane.
Who the hell does she think she is - oh, I know, your not-so-friendly local branch of the American Taliban. She actually believes she has the right to ask him that question!! And to pass judgment on his answer!! Unfreakingbelievable!!!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some people use religion to impose their will on others by claiming a higher authority. They seek to exert power over others to justify their own existence, becoming bullies in the process.
One wonders why these women haven't staked out any in vitro clinics, where children are conceived in a way God did not create. They are probably in favor of the death penalty, even though innocent people continue to be executed.
And I wonder how these women can torment people who are already in mourning for a wanted child. It has to be about power.
Good on this man for shouting back, and for telling his story. It couldn't have been easy.
Didn't Ken Buck (CO) go so far as to say that he was in favor of banning contraception as well, with his endorsement of the Personhood bill in CO? For folks that want less government, all of this seems incredible. What should remain a personal and intimate choice is now becoming a public debacle ...... we need to start believing in women and their ability to make the right choice!
Yes--the so-called "personhood" bill (I think it's prop 62) would also ban many forms of contraception, including the Pill, that the right-wingers deem to be "abortifacients." What a joke. IMO, these right-wing fundies are showing their true agenda in this bill. They don't want to reduce the number of abortions--if they did, they'd be giving away free condoms on every street corner and every college dorm. They want to go back to the days when sexuality was under lock and key, particularly for women. They really wouldn't mind if we were a Christian version of Saudi Arabia.
Alright, let's agree to stop all abortions like these screaming protestors demand. But with one condition. And that condition is that each and every one of these right-to-lifers agree to adopt, from birth, two of these children and raise them as their own through to completion of college. Sound good, lifers? No? Of course not. That's something Jesus would do.
My heart is breaking for this young man and his wife having to go through this horrific experience. I commend him for being able to keep his cool, much better than I would have, by not completely losing it with those two brainwashed church goers. It is a legal right for a woman, who is alive I might add, to make the grueling decision to have an abortion. But it is her body and I will repeat again....her life. What is it that these so called Operation Rescue members don't get about life? No one wants to have an abortion. The compulsion to demean and the hate that these people spew at a woman, with her family, or worse alone, at the most difficult time in her life is cruel and inhumane.
Save a life that is living why don't you?
I think we have to be careful not to erase people whose abortions were wanted. Not everyone has one under tragic circumstances, and keeping them all legal, safe, and accessible is what's important.
MechTrek -- exactly. In this particular circumstance, the abortion was absolutely a tragedy. But trying to paint all abortions as a hand-wringing tragedy is just buying into the anti-choice discourse. Reality precedes potentiality.
Fox News may be realizing they now have a new use for their millions of brainwashed fans (fans is short for "fanatics"): the implied but real threat that if you annoy Fox, they can go after you until one of their nut jobs kills you.
Normally, when say, NPR fires Juan Williams - Fox would of course try to destroy NPR, like a Scientologist going after, well - any non-Scientologist.
But now there's a new level of intimidation from Fox. "Boy - those people at NPR - do they really deserve to live after what they did to one of our guys?"
So the NPR guys get the the Dr Tiller treatment, and O'Reilly & Hannity attend the funerals, saying, "Sure never intended for that to happen (nudge nudge - wink wink!). Anyone else want to mess with us?"
This may sound cynical, but it happened with Dr Tiller, and it can happen again.
i really don't know how this guy kept his composure. the arrogance of these anti-abortion people is off the charts. you mess with my devastated family like that...? again, i don't know how this guy stays composed.
but power to you bro, "despicable", only begins to explain their ignorance.
Good for you for standing up to ignorance and hate -- you and your wife truly displayed courage on what must have been the most heart wrenching day of your lives -- it never ceases to amaze me how they cowards back down and turn away when confronted with facts and truth -- they can only rely on their own ignorance when confronted by reasoned and rational arguments
I have a suspicion that there's a story that's been forgotten by most, never learned by many, and uncomfortable to almost everyone, that needs to be told. The documentary was fascinating, but one aspect could have been explored more, and that's the tale of the patients. I (like R. Maddow) never lived in a time when abortion was illegal, having been born after Roe v. Wade was decided, but I remember with horror the first time I heard that an often fatal alternative to legal abortion that existed long ago was a coat hanger. Seriously? How barbaric is that? How appalling?!?! I've seen mangled fetus bits. It's sad to say I've seen images like that more than a few times, thanks to the anti-abortion folks. But I hardly ever even hear anything about the disgusting realities of life without legal options. It is easy to believe there is no such thing. It's more comfortable to believe the fairy tales that if we all loved enough and wished enough and hoped enough that all the little fetuses could grow up to be star football players and that no mother would ever die in childbirth ever again, if we just gave them a chance. I'd like to live in that place! But I live here. On planet Earth in the year 2010. Babies die. Moms die. "Quality of life" is an important concept, but easily dismissed when good people are afraid or uncomfortable talking about what it means and why it's important. There's an opportunity here for a news organization like MSNBC to put some detail behind the concept. To tell the story we either forgot or never knew. Will you?
The anti abortion protestors have no idea why each woman goes to the clinic.
It might be because: the fetus is dead and must be removed before it rots.
The fetus is not viable. It can't survive birth.
The fetus is the result of incest or rape.
The mother will die if the fetus is not removed.
They treat every mother as if she decided on whether to have an abortion by consulting a Magic Eight-ball. Probably the mother does not want an abortion either, but was forced into it by circumstances.
It is so arrogant to presume they know the motives. It is so arrogant they presume to claim they know better than the mother what the best decision is.
There has to be some non-violent way to fight back against the anti-abortionists that is just as ruthless and relentless as they have been dishing out.
When a human thinks to know the mind of god,even on the basist level,that is similar to a bacterium understanding you! Can you honestly concieve of that happening? "God says"...Nothing lately! And only "hearsay" before that!
Much easier to get killed by somebodies god(take your pick) than by thier demons!
Whatever you do don't drink the koolaid...That funny taste is not ascorbic acid!
I've nothing against folks having a personal "God"idea...what bums me is when the thought takes word!
Wonderfull thing about this country is that you can "Believe"anything you want! You want to believe your god makes you breath...Go ahead...Just don't let it fall out of your mouth too often because folks who think are gonna chuckle at ya and watch you for more strange behaviors...On the "Watch List"you go!
Should have started that list a few thousand years ago...could have saved everybody a lot of grief!
I'll go now as I find myself waxing curmudgeonly and I should be waxing the car!
As I said on another post, good for him for confronting these idiots, but I've got a few questions for these people with just way too much time and not enough of their own "business" to keep them busy!!!
<b>
1) How many children have you adopted or taken in off of the foster care roles?
2) How many days a week do you volunteer to read to sick kids in the hospital wards?
3) How many times have you given "free" babysitting to some worn out parent, especially if they've got a child with "special needs"???</b>
Before you tell me about what needs to stay in my womb, you either better be doing all of the above, or be ready to fight......
I am so freaking mad and fed up at/with the lack of public outcry against "American Taliban" style murder and intimidation!
Who-in-the-hell do these people think they are? If they guess "deluded christian literalists", "thugs" or "terrorists"... they're correct.
I'm all in favor of fighting fire with fire... publish "WANTED" posters on the protesters and advocates for violence. Harass their kids, picket their work places, ruin their lives, expose them to the nut-jobs and whacked-out crazies... Do Unto Them As They Do Unto Others.
I might end up in jail if I punched-out a couple of those self-righteous know-nothings... so why aren't any of these people cooling their heels for threatening to kill someone? Double standard religious crap!
you know here is something that no one has mentioned in the debate over planned parenthood.....the word "Parenthood" is in the title of the clinics!!!!!!!!!!!! Their goal is to help the women they work with HAVE the baby if at all possible, their last resort is to abort the baby, 99% of abortions are because the baby is going to have major health problems potentially ending up in a miscarriage or still born or because the mother is at risk for serious complications, the others are rape which to me is excusable why force a woman to have a baby that was forced upon her through rape?
PLANNED PARENTHOOD. if their goal was to abort babies it would be renamed Planned Abortions....wake up America!!!!