Dylan Kelley writes from Bradford, Vermont:
I've been watching your show for some time now and would like to thank you for renewing my hope and faith in the ideas and inspirations (equality, freedom of speech, a well informed citizendry, the democratic process) that make up the foundations of America.
My family is descendant of irish immigrants. Because of this we've always held in high regard the notion of equality of opportunity. The idea that if one works hard enough they will able to accomplish their dreams.
The politics of these past few years have left many of the ideas of the founding fathers and the ideas in the Constitution in quite murky water. So much of what's out there in the political arena seems to stem from a pervasive xenophobia. So much of the political establishment is afraid of the other: Immigrants, Arab Americans, African Americans, working-class Americans.
In response to such rampant xenophobia (and emboldened by the fighting spirit of yourself and others) I've gotten a simple tattoo to remind myself and others of a few of the ideas that once guided America through tumultuous times (don't worry... it's not one of those terrible celebrity portrait tattoos).
While the "nerd factor" needle might be peaking right now... I'm quite of both my tattoo and also proud that you and your colleagues so fondly and fervently care for the country, its people, and their rights with the same ardent passion as I.
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The GOP would love to add "... except for Mexicans."
The GOP hates Hispanics because they vote almost entirely for Democrats. At this point, the GOP doesn't care how much they annoy Hispanics because it won't help them at the polls one bit. Just my take on it.
I like my own Mexican neighbors, great family, beautiful kids.
The troll know as 'hatenomor' is back - I guess there is a 'probation period' here on TRMS blog....may I ask why? Do you need to "review?" (read all previous blog strings/threads...for real!?!?!). Lets all count till he get's more into the deeply hateful/derogatory/divisive crap he is so well know for...actually..let's not..hopefully...
And hatenomor demonizes WBEng by calling him an a hole?! You just refuted yourself!
Thanks for the twist in 'refuting' NativeSonK ;) Oh, just to clarify, my gender is female...actually a proud feminist, lesbian, accountability freak female as it were (as long as I'm labeling people).
Hatenomor:
Please try to get your facts correct if you are going to claim your arguments can't be refuted. Regarding Hispanic voters:
Latinos nationwide voted for the Democratic presidential nominee
over the Republican by a margin of 59% to 40% in 2004 (Kerry‐Bush) and 67% to 31% in 2008 (Obama‐McCain). The swing was even more pronounced among foreign‐born Latino voters; with 52% choosing Kerry in 2004 and 48% choosing Bush—nearly breaking even—while in 2008
75% chose Barack Obama and 25% supported John McCain.
Additionally, as the GOP is seeking to overturn the 14th amendment, I find it very interesting that you would support them. Given that the 14th amendment overturned such injustice as was supported by such cases as Dred Scott and the 3/5ths and other clauses within the Constitution and granted citizenship to all persons born in our nation; not just "white" persons.
One of the great facets of our political system is that you can support whichever party you see fit to; whether they deserve your support or not.
Sorry WBEng; I clearly posted my response to Hatenomor in the wrong manner...first time poster, frequent reader!
Hey justdafcts - that's funny - it's easy to get 'dissoriented' with that subject matter - thumbs up on keep hitting the post button. :)
And this is why our borders had always been fence free.
photoshop.
Hey Bob, it's no photoshop work. You can give you the name of the tattoo parlor if you like.
Dylan..the Statue of Liberty sonnet, embroidered on my heart as tattooed on your arm, is the embodiment of the fabric our ardent passion..kudos my friend, well done (although, more visual than I sport, obviously - well done, my friend!).
9500 Liberty is an excellent look at what are Republicans motives behind immigration. This film takes us from border states to suburban DC in Northern Virginia, and shows us how many "conservatives" feel about Hispanics, whether citizen or not. It seems like racism to me...check it out, and hope this clip maybe makes it on-air on MSNBC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Dw1ioGPGY
The fact that your Show and Network are as far to the left as you competitors over at Fox are to the right. I like to compare the ridiculous spin that both sides put on the news, to the way our elected Representatives behave in D.C which is like little Children fighting about who is right and who is wrong. I personally agree with some of your views as well as some of the views on Fox, which is where probably where most of the AMERICANS I know fall (unless your illeagle but thats a seperate issue ) I wish that both You and your competitor would actually practice FAIR & BALANCED REPORTING and perhaps talk about common sense solutions to the MASSIVE ECONOMIC ISSUES our country has and reducing the DEBT that our CHILDREN will be left to Pay and operate OUR COUNTRY UNDER AN ACTUAL BUDGET. then again I guess that would not make good entertainment or Television.
testing post comment reg on the maddow blog
I remember that quote and constantly tell it to the supporters of the papers please law.
Even if this law was going to capture all the illegal immigrants with no economic effect. (Thats funny Jane Brewer.) It is wrong and the anti-american attitude over one of the many things that makes us a great nation. The world is going bonkers if you ask me.
A+ tattoo, and I can certainly agree with the sentiment. TRMS often gives me hope when I see my partner's homeland tearing itself apart. x
If you're going to have words permanently inked on your body, you would be hard pressed to find better ones. Thanks for sharing this.
Awesome tattoo! What a great way to make sure you're constantly reminding yourself and others of that ideal.
What I think is funny, is that all the talk of illegal immigrants seems to be focused on Mexicans, which illegals can come fron any country in the world. As a Canadian, I am allowed to enter the US pretty much whenever I want, as long as I leave again within the allotted time, which I think is 2 months, but I could be wrong. From what I've read, and again, I could be wrong, Mexicans have the same right to enter the US legally, whenever they want, as long as they leave again, as part of the NAFTA agreement. How come this is never mentioned by those who wish to rid the US of the illegals? Which again, everyone seems to think are Mexican.
THE PASTY COLOR OF MY SKIN IS A TRICK!! I COULD STILL BE ILLEGAL!!
Without arguing illegal immigration's, well, illegality...I'd like to see a day pass in this country, one single day, without a single illegal immigrant working (sometimes in decent conditions, sometimes in unequal conditions, and sometimes in abysmal ones no "legal" worker would tolerate). When I picture that, I know there's no quick solution. I also suspect that, under the secure-our-borders panic language that'll scare up short-term support, no pol or businessman with a house and gardening staff, a country club membership, a favorite massage parlor or laundry, and a love of fine dining really wants those workers gone. Or wants to pay them any better than they're being paid now, or wants them free of fear, or wants to pay the huge sums it would take to repatriate them all from the budget their state wants for a ballpark or whatever. It's all just blowing smoke.
The dirty little secret that no one wants to talk about except here: http://bit.ly/4fWWBo is that the US benefits from illegal workers, businesses pay lower wages -- and yes, that's despicable, but why blame desperate people who only want to feed themselves and their families, why not blame the greed of the companies? -- and the Soc. Sec. Admin. gets paid from the earnings taken out from illegals -- who will never claim those benefits -- working under bogus Social Security numbers. The government benefits, the corporations benefit and the corporations lobby the government to protect their interests. If the corporations weren't benefiting, we'd have immigration reform tomorrow. But then EVERY company would have to pay at least minimum wage and adhere to health and safety standards. We have a group of throw-away people who can be maimed or die on the job and no one cares. The next poor sap just steps into the maw of this insane machine from the long, long line of the desperate. Those who haven't died in the desert trying to get here for the "opportunity".
No question nice, welcoming people, are cool!
BUT - "God" or whomever is not expanding Earth's resources to match the population explosion. We really could import a billion poor people into the U.S. - and should, right? What kind of life are they otherwise going to have, living in hellsville somewhere?
But look at Haiti. They've got 9 million wonderful people - 8 million of whom no one is ever going to be able to care for.
New rule: You can have a kid AFTER you've saved enough money/gathered enough resources to ensure them a long, satisfactory life. Period!
People cross the border to find work . Lo and behold their finding work . I question the patriotism of the cheap labor exploiters!!. What jobs that haven't been sent overseas are being given to the poor Mexican illegally .
according to GOP and millions of (conservative) people,
"businesses have that freedom because state and federal should not, in anyway, dictate how to run any business"... they want government out of running businesses and less restrictions on their freedom to run their "private" business.
I'm against law breaking too.
But I'm also a realist, and I can sympathize with other people, and ask myself what I'd do in their position.
We all know the moral dilemma about the poor person who has to choose whether or not to steal a loaf of bread to feed their family. This situation is at least as morally ambiguous.
Let's say it's you that lives in a place like Juárez, Mexico. For those unfamiliar with Mexican geography, Juárez is not some far flung city in the middle of Mexico, or toward Central America. It's a border town directly across the Rio Grande from El Paso, TX. It's also a hotspot for Drug Cartels and police corruption.
Here's a brief timeline:
Now, that's a pretty horrible picture. Like something out of the movie Dark Knight or some other over the top Hollywood production.
But it's real life. Literally a stone's throw away from El Paso, TX.
Now let's say you're living in Juárez. You're married. You have a kid or two. You're barely eking out a living because the country is terribly poor. You have four options:
Now honestly, which one do you choose? I'll be honest. If it's me, it's a tough choice between 2 and 4. And 4 seems a much safer bet.
Do I like that these people are breaking the law? No. Do I understand it? Do I sympathize with them? Absolutely.
This is not a black and white issue. The foreign nationals who are here and breaking no laws other than the law that says they can't be here are no threat. We have far bigger problems than "dealing with" people who came here to make a better life for themselves, and who's only crime was having the misfortune of being born in a poor country.
There are an estimated twelve million illegal aliens in the country. There are currently fourteen million unemployed. I think we could kill two birds with one stone, but we all know that's not going to happen. Americans aren't going to pick fruit and clean hotels. Even if they did decide they were going to take all those jobs, and those jobs were going to fall under the regulation of labor practices, the majority of Americans would find themselves essentially in poverty. A head of lettuce would cost eight dollars, and ground beef would be fifteen dollars a pound, and since the "pro-business" lobby has succeeded in fighting the establishment of a living wage for a century, the majority of Americans would find themselves without the ability to afford even basic necessities. It's all well and good to froth at the mouth over the legality of immigration, but if there's one thing the conservative agenda has proven, it's the inability of that agenda to address the wider reaching problems it's solutions create. It's the same with the "War On Drugs". Forty years have passed, and that war hasn't achieved one single victory in it's agenda, and still, the conservatives use "law and order" and being "tough on crime" as campaign issues. Moral stances do not a solution make. It's good campaign rhetoric, but good rhetoric doesn't necessarily turn into good governance. Just like "government is the problem" coming from the party which expanded government power more in the last three times it was in power than any other period of American history. Let's not forget, "government spending" and the budget surplus they threw down the toilet while creating a staggering deficit. The leaders of the Republican party are in the pocket of whatever interest can pay the highest campaign contributions and offer the best jobs when they're out of office. The continued financial upheaval serves them short term as a campaign issue and long term because they want an uneducated mass of impoverished citizens they can easily manipulate to keep them in power. They will gas on about immigration, but like loans for small business (the engine of the economy), they'll do nothing at all, because the status quo serves their political needs.
Pyromosh, the U.S. is no more responsible for solving the problems of poor countries with corrupt governments than other nations are to solve all of our own nation's problems. First and foremost, the U.S. is responsible to its own citizens and what is best for itself. You can't help others if you let your own nation go down the drain.
I live in Phoenix and I can tell you the situation IS definitely out of control. We have had numerous cop killings by illegals, drug cartel violence, high kidnapping rates, and other violent crimes by illegals. Not to mention the strain put on our economy from those who pour in over the border illegally and unlawfully benefit from our welfare, healthcare, and educational systems, etc. The law says that if anyone of any race is stopped by a police officer for a reasonable violation that has nothing to do with appearance, and then asked for some sort of ID, DL, green card, visa, etc. that they cannot produce, or who cannot speak English, or who have a group of people fly out of a van and run off into different directions, that they can be checked for illegal immigration status and detained if found out to be illegal. That is it. Are police supposed to say, "Thanks for being here illegally; go on about your business and enjoy the benefits of disrespecting our laws!"?? If anyone believes the B.S. that the law says if you look Mexican you can be stopped and asked for 'papers' then they are choosing to believe one huge LIE the left is trying to put out there to slander our state. Fox News actually READ the law and was the only outlet to report it correctly. To say AZ doesn't have the right to protect itself and enforce the laws of this nation when the feds refuse to do so is insane. And of course when you are enforcing illegal immigration among the Mexican border states the majority of illegals are going to be, uh, Mexican (duh). The law however applies to Canadians or anyone from overseas who does the same thing. Their numbers however aren't anywhere NEAR what they are from Mexico. So enter those who raise hysteria and cry "racism!" and "racial profiling!" to scare others from seeing the issue. What a shame the true meaning of racism has been made meaningless by the rampant and careless use of this word for political gain.
I never said it was the responsibility of the U.S. to solve anyone else's problems (though keeping our neighbors stable is arguably in our best interest).
All I did was lay out how dire the situation is in much of Mexico, and the dilemma faced by many Mexicans that brings them here. Then I asked the question: "What would you do?".
You didn't respond to the question, so I'll ask it again. What would you do?
As for the other strain you mentioned, with the exception of the fact that they don't pay income tax, I've seen not evidence that they are any more of a strain on the various systems in the U.S. than any other working poor.
I know people that spent the early part of their adult life pumping gas and changing tires. Guess what? Those jobs don't have insurance. Usually if something happens, those folks become a strain on the system. LEt's take your points one at a time, shall we?
I guess what it boils down to is that I'm just not very impressed with this idea that some people "get to" be U.S. citizens, and other people, we can't let in. What makes you or me special? Especially since citizenship was just given to us literally by birthright (I know I am making an assumption you were born in the U.S as well).
I don't see illegal immigration as the problem. A drug war is the problem, combined with an infraction on civil liberties with the Arizona law. I read the whole text of the law, and yes - the liberal media has mischaracterized it a bit. Mostly in failing to report on how exhaustively lenient the "proof of legal residence" is (for instance, a driver's license suffices).
That said, it misses the point. The idea that any police officer can demand anyone produce papers proving one is here lawfully just on the vague concept of "reasonable suspicion" is the basic element that most folks would say goes too far. This law would probably help to catch lots of illegal immigrants. But it would also allow cops to demand papers from people for "looking Mexican", which is what has people who enjoy their civil rights up in arms.
Penalties for employers who employ people illegally? I've not even heard opposition to that part. The idea that you can be asked for ID if you're stopped for another reason (for instance, a traffic stop), same there.
The problem here is entirely about the idea of making it okay for police to demand ID from people on little to no suspicion. That's all I've heard problems with, and that's all that was blocked.
+10 points to Fox News for posting the text of the bill in it's entirety. But several million points off for missing the point entirely.
I live in Phoenix too ... see the name??? ... and I can tell you point blank that everything SWL is spouting is pure Fox News nonsense and has zero to do with the actual state of things in Arizona. A small percentage of the illegal population here is involved in drug trafficking and and drug traffickers, legal citizens or no, are commonly involved in violent crimes. But the "kidnapping" scare is a hoax and the idea that cop killings are "numerous"--- a vague enough word, but still--- is not borne out by the facts. We would gain a lot more from reviewing ridiculous drug laws than we would from harassing a mainly peaceable population.
Great tattoo.
Thought you'd appreciate this one, Rachel
http://www.contrariwise.org/2009/05/15/all-men-are-created-equal/
This man is an idiot of epic proportions and will regret making such a rash decisions any day now I expect.
I love how he's picking and choosing the feel good warm and fuzzy sentiments of early American philosophy and forgetting the ones which helped to define slavery as the economic powerhouse behind America's rise to fortune or the ones which allowed us to even become a country by starting one bloody revolution after another or the cold hearted and ruthless dogmas behind capitalism.
Allow me to add to this lovely tattoo in such a way as to fix not only this man's idiotic decision but the problem about which I believe he is talking;
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free and then let me tax the living crap out of their income to pay for those too tired or poor to work or provide for themselves."
I love your show because it gives lie to the outdated fear about having to be closeted to make it in the television industry and for that you make me proud to be gay and out but honey if this is the kind of response you show is inspiring in others perhaps it's time to go back to the drawing board and rethink your approach to the less well chemically balanced.
What are you talking about?!?!?!?
Dear cogentascending, While I'm happy to take yr name at face value I strongly recommend you adopt a wait-and-see attitude for now. As things stand whatever cogency is in play seems not to have ascended any further than perhaps a subbasement level. But good luck with that! Mac
While I wholeheartedly agree that America has treated neither its immigrant population fairly and humanely (legal or not)... past and present... it is not the actual history of America that I am paying homage to. Were anybody seek to pay homage to any portion of any nation's history they would surely run into bruises, black eyes, and otherwise unsightly patches from the chords of memory.
What my tattoo IS doing however, is honoring the ideal and the belief that was embodied by Emma Lazarus and her work "The New Colossus". While we have not lived up to our own ideals and aspirations, I strongly hold true to such guiding principles. Were the societies of the past suddenly cease to attempt to live up to its loftiest ideals we would surely have perished generations ago. Therefore: we must continue to look to the highest, least likely, and most inspiring ideals if America is to survive both as a country and as an IDEA. The IDEA of America was a powerful force of inspiration long before shots were fired at Lexington and it is that same beacon of hope (from Lexington to Ellis Island to El Paso) that I am honoring.
Photo_hunter, You Rock!!! So many have become so hypocritical and have forgotten the standards we of excellence we should be striving for. If America has given up on those ideals, then we really should remove the Statue of Liberty from Ellis Island, because what used to be a symbol of freedom & hope will have become a lie. False advertising is against the law too. Possibly those people are just afraid. Afraid that history will repeat it's self and the Karma for taking this land from the Native Americans will bite their butts. Or it may be the Karma from stealing Blacks & Chinese for slave labor, or maybe just for the way America has treated all other nationalities like something on the bottom of their shoe.
I applaud not only that you honor the ideal, but also your having such commitment. You Rock!!!!
What a great tattoo...
Hatenomor,
I honor your take on the issue of what is legal. I must wonder though, if your neighbor had a fruitful garden, How long would you let your children starve before sneaking over there to collect a bit of the excess. Remember there is no recourse for these people who are willing to work very hard to earn the food for their children. Theirs is an act of desperation. If it were my garden I would be remorse in my integrity if I didn't share the excess. If your issue is with the idea that they work for lower than legal wages thereby stealing jobs from Americans, It's the people who hire them that share in the illegality of it. I'm not condoning breaking the law. I teach my son to help his neighbors feed his children without breaking the law. I will not accept that there is no legal way for these people to get the help they need.
I know this might be stoned for saying, but Rosa Parks broke the law. Rosa Parks was tired and knew she was breaking the law.
Breaking the law can change laws, especially when oppression is involved.
Surviving is a basic human act. A human act in which we praise...just depending on how they survive.
walk in the shoes of an "illegal"...or several illegals, Hate.. it might open your eyes.
I agree...if a law is not right, it needs to be changed and sometimes the only (or most effective) way of changing a law is to take a stand against it. The founding fathers broke the colonial laws by starting a revolution.
Illegal immigration is only a problem because businesses here in USA open their doors wide for them and are rarely prosecuted for it. If the businesses that hire them had real consequences when they do so, I bet this Immigration thing would just about dry up and blow away.
Punish those who hire undocumented workers.
Not gonna happen; the GOP is in bed with business interests..