Tonight on the show, we're looking at why BP wasn't prepared to deal with the Deepwater Horizon disaster. Short answer: No one made the company get ready.
BP's 2009 response plan for a Gulf oil spill weighs in at 583 pages (pdf). Among them, you'll find mention of walruses, which live nowhere near the Deepwater Horizon, and a wildlife expert who died in 2005 and was supposed to help save them.
If you haven't got time to read the whole thing, you can check the cool flow chart -- it proves someone was supposed to be in charge, a "Qualified Individual." The AP takes a wonderful, substantive look at the report, if you want someone to do the lifting for you.
And while you're at it, check out the two letters from the Coast Guard to BP -- one to Doug Suttles (pdf) and one to Tony Hayward (pdf).
We'll see you at 9 Eastern.
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Considering the absolute garbage that comes out of Tony Hayward's mouth, I fully expect him to declare that the walrus population would still exist in the Gulf of Mexico if only that wildlife expert hadn't of died.
Rachel, who the hell was the government official from mms that signed the permit allowing them to drill? They should be exposed!
More to the point, are existing off-shore oil wells having their paperwork and environmental impact statements inspected - regardless of the depth? How are we expected to believe that what BP did in its paperwork IS NOT standard operating procedure for ALL off-shore oil wells and drilling companies?
As BP has so graphically demonstrated, the entire culture of off-shore drilling is suspect and nothing is to be trusted. If off-shore drilling in to continue at ANY depth, they must show us, the govermental regulators, and our elected officials explicitly why they are safe to continue.
Its not enough that they say amongst themselves "There but by the grace of God..." The grace of God is not enough. Papers please.
What I don't get is why the clean up response is so tepid. You are hammering this and a few other people in the media are as well. But it needs the big hammer. I voted for Obama. I am an Obama supporter. But he is really close to George Bush/Katrina and Jimmy Carter/Hostage Crisis rolled into one on this one. Makes you want to scream, DO SOMETHING!!! ANYTHING!!! You are supposed to be a smart and competent. WTF are you doing???
Can someone please tell me what Obama should be doing? I keep hearing lots of yelling that he's not doing anything, but I've been following this thing and the only thing I can think of is bringing in soldiers to help with the 'cleanup' such that it is. Stopping this gusher is the ONLY thing that's going to bring relief, but It's really looking like NO ONE can actually stop it short of digging the relief wells that won't be finished any time soon. I understand the frustration, but all of this anger at a person who really didn't have anything to do with this thing and who has absolutely no power to stop it is a waste of time and energy. We're screwed and there's nothing we can do about it. Just hope that we haven't destroyed the entire ocean and learn from this horrible lesson.
What ever else can be done...the oil being spilled could be treated in as serious a fashion as a military threat. Its even amenable to some of the same tactics. WHERE IS THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS!!!!!
So who in BP was the "qualified individual"?
This oil spill makes me feel so helplessly depressed. I feel like leaders on all sides of things aren't doing enough. DO SOMETHING! TRY THINGS! I want to see a global, grassroots, facebook-generation-esque effort to clean this up.
I read BP's Oil Spill Response Plan a bit ago - I think I originally got it off the House Energy & Commerce Committee's web site from one of the hearings that were conducted. What struck me (of the 100's of interesting things that popped out) was how redundant BP was when stating that one of their first actions was to...now wait, it's good...really, it's good...estimate the size of the oil spill before determining the best plan of action. Yes, that's right, they say it, re-say it numerous times, and put front and center that they need to first estimate the size of the oil spill and get estimates on the amount of oil that they will likely be dealing with before jumping in with all feet...
Is it me or did I really hear in the first month or so, repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and even with a somewhat nasty 'you are stupid for continuing to keep asking me" tone, BP's statements of estimating the size of the oil spill is a useless act and not something they needed to devote their precious time on as they had real work to contimplate (capping the damn thing I think, or some other failed plan)...
What is it they get labeled when doing/saying the thing that they then deny is something they should be doing...hippo....hipocrit...hypocrite! that's it, hypocrite.
Why are we shocked that MMS didn't thoroughly scour a 583+ page document? Perhaps the finger pointing should go toward the funding of MMS and how many staff resources were allocated for this initial review effort. And let's recognize that they are still dealing with Bush-era funding levels.
Also, I think you should look at other agencies besides MMS who rubber stamp documents. I work for a government agency, and the funding level is such that there is no choice BUT to rubber stamp documents. Government agencies in general truly rely on the "good will" of industry to self comply. Only when disaster strikes do funding levels and regulations get serious, and after a few years the regulations slide and funding tightens up again until another disaster strikes. What will it take for government leaders to truly learn their lessons?
Perhaps I should have said the budget and funding levels for MMS should be investigated. However, my experience from government agencies, in general, are that they are more likely to be underfunded than overfunded.
And of course it's the responsibility of the MMS (or any other government agency) to carefully review the application materials provided. However, reality for most agencies is that the funding level to provide this level of review just doesn't exist.
True, I don't know the MMS budget. But, it's probably safe to assume that the application packet for the drilling platform consisted of a myriad of documents, of which the spill response plan is a small part. My rubber stamp comment was in reference to the AP review of the report.
Again, the point I was hoping to make was that there should be an evaluation of budgeted and funded resources vs. the resources needed to do an appropriate application review.
I am so sick of Tony Hayward trying to double-talk his way around the disaster HE created, I sometimes find it hard to see straight when I see him on TV. Last night, Pres. Obama said he hasn't spoken directly or met with Tony Hayward. That's unfathomable for the Pres. of this country to say.
Is anybody else growing weary of Pres. Obama's calm-cool-and-collected-friendly-at-all-costs mentality? Where's the leadership? Where's the paternal pride? Why does he not get it?! Prez needs to wrap Hayward's $100 tie tightly around his fist all the way up to his ear, slam his ass up against a wall and say, through clenched teeth, "Listen, fuc*head, I'm giving you 5 days to get that well choked off. I don't care how much it costs you, and I don't care how you do it, but you better make it happen or I'll have some people shove your ass down in that blowhole and at least one sh*t-for-brains will be gone from BP! Then, Obama could release the tie, shove Hayward on his way down the hall with a swift kick him in the pants as says, "Now get out of my sight before I do something you'll regret."
I feel better just writing it, but if Obama could find the spine and muster up the courage to do something remotle close to that, I'm sure somehow it would miraculously be solved--probably before 5 days, too! Imagine the massive spike in his approval ratings if Rahm or Gibbs leaked the incident to the press!! "Hellooooo, 2nd term!!!"
it can't be done in 5 days. there is nothing the President can do about containing the problem. this is nothing like the Katrina or Beers incidents. This is unprecentented. What Obama Administration SHOULD be doing is drawing up legislation to PREVENT this from happening a 3rd time! so let's blame EVERY presidential administration since 1979 for not getting tough on "Big Oil" after the Ixtoc 1 accident.
I appreciate what you're saying, thinker1969, but I honestly do believe that the POTUS can and should definitely do more. He could be threatening BP that the US will revoke their ability to EVER drill on or off of our shores, for starters. Punishing works, but nobody seems to have the balls to do that.
Have you heard even one murmur of a threat towards Hayward or BP. Behind closed doors much can be accomplished, but it requires iron will and blunt speaking...and Obama, we all know, has an elaborate and colorful lexicon--if anybody can do it, HE can. He just needs more balls.
How do you know what is happening behind closed doors? How do you know he is not fuming? How do you know everyone in this country is not holding our collective breaths that a big ol hurricane won't come in and make things worse, including the present administration?
Would it do any good to see a President lose his temper?? I would rather see him remain calm under pressure, for the most part...
Firstly, a decent barometer of what's happening behind closed doors is the clean-up efforts and logistical coordination that we have presented to us, daily, by numerous media outlets from whom we get our information.
Secondly, I know he's not fuming, because, #1, he hasn't personally spoken to, or met with, Tony Haward (you know, Tony Hayward? The BP CEO who wants his fuc*ing life back???) which is absolutely insane and brainless policy by any standards, no matter who is President.
Thirdly, I'm not holding my breath--yet--because hurricane season hasn't begun yet. Anyone who is can take a breath for a moment until "the season" actually begins to roll around. Have you ever had a boss or parent who "lost their temper" with you? How did it feel? Now, have you ever had someone, through clenched teeth and with firm and obvious anger--maybe even a sword-like pointed finger--threaten or warn you to do or don't do something? If so, how did that feel? Did it have the desired effect on you? If not, I have been on both sides of those scenarios, and I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that it works...and it works extremely well, if done correctly.
Lastly, I'm a registered Independent who voted enthusiastically for Pres. Obama. I bought into the idea of definite and practical change...change I could believe in, if you will. I'm still in his corner, and I still want him to succeed...more than you can imagine, I want him to succed...unfortunately, I have yet to see the change that I believed was coming. The "problem" with Pres. Obama is that I don't think he, has ever been in a fist fight...or even a near-violent confrontation. It's so evident because if you have ever been in a situation like those I just outlined, you would have an insight into the human psyche that you can't get at in any university or at any law firm. It comes from perceiving an imminent and unacceptable threat and reacting to it firmly and decisively...whether it a firm posture and tone of voice or if it's a hard, fast fist to the face.
Look, the best of the best lawyers (or leaders, soldiers, parents, for that matter) and adjudicators know precisely how to wield their anger in a manner that is both compelling and motivating. No, I don't want the President to wildly fly off the handle like a lunatic, frothing from the mouth, but I do, however, want him to utilize his backbone and assert his heretofore unseen anger far more forcefully and conclusively than he has done, and can presently muster.
I apologize for the lack of continuity, I inadvertenly posted before I finished.
In closing, it's an amateur move and an amateur decision to not have, after 52 freakin' days, met or spoken with the head of the company that started and created this catastrophe. I detest Bush 43, but when we were wronged and violated on 9/11, his representation of our collective rage toward Al Qeada DID have a certain galvanizing effect on ALL of us. Look, 95% of what 43 did during his 2 terms was a mistake, let's face it--from de-regulating Wall St. to giving huge tax cuts to the wealthiest of the wealthy to not going after the actual people who DID attack us and perpetrated 9/11. But, to give credit where credit is due, and 43 doesn't deserve much, our current leader should, well, not tear a page out of 43's book, but at least consider part of one where he let us all know that he empathized with and shared our anger.
But, I'm not holding my breath...good-night and good Luck.
What should the Obama admin. be doing that they're not doing? They aren't oil drilling professionals. They're a government. All they can do is make BP fix the problem. BP has tried many things, and each thing they tried (until this latest "top hat") took a while to get ready, took a while to do, and then failed anyway.
The "boom" fiasco that Rachel's been pointing out is certainly something that could be done better. Someone (perhaps the Coast Guard?) could be organizing a rota of visits to boomed islands to make sure the containment booms are still anchored, and to scoop up and replace the sorbent booms, or whatever.
But apart from that, seriously. What should the President do? He can't swim down a mile and fix the thing. He doesn't personally know squat about oil and gas pressure (although I'd bet he knows far more now than he did, say, in March). The equipment the Navy has doesn't deal with oil drilling and containment, so there's nothing "the government" can really do other than hit BP over the head.
jenniearcheo, all due respect, but you just don't get it. "...All they [our government] can do is make BP fix the problem."??? That's the whole entire point. YES, jennie, they should, at the very least, "...make BP fix the problem." >>>crickets chirping<<< Are you crazy or stupid? That'd be a great place to start. Why does that not dawn on you? Isn't that what he/they should've done all along, before 51 days have passed?
No, the USN doesn't have the equipment or the knowhow to begin to fix a mess like this, but our gov't should have BP's balls in a vice by now, and that isn't the case. Do you think we should just count on BP to just take care of it on their own? Should we simply trust their "experts" and judgment? Hmm?
You said, "He [Pres. Obama] can't swim down a mile and fix the thing." No kidding? I don't care about him swimming down to fix it, I want him to kick BP's collective nuts into the dirt and FORCE them to "fix it".
Are you really the "coulda, woulda, shoulda" bonehead that you appear to be? And what's wrong with hitting BP over the head, anyway?!?!?!?
Me thinks Maddow will be getting awards for this reporting. You are doing an amazing job Rachel!
BP and USCG will eventually use tankers to collect the Gulf oil spill. Unfortunately, this decision will be made after the devastation of many coastal communities.
Since May 17, 2010, Renergie, Inc. has submitted unsolicited proposals for the purpose of using three Panamax class crude tankers for the collection and onboard separation of the BP oil spill to every federal agency, state agency, state elected official and federal elected official with even a remote interest in the BP oil spill.
The USCG response to Renergie's proposal stated, “Unfortunately, the Coast Guard does not currently have a mission and is not hiring contractors. However, if BP requests names, I will recommend and forward your company.”
The blowout of April 20, 2010 aboard the Deepwater Horizon was clearly preventable. The fact that the BP oil spill has been allowed to reach coastal areas is inexcusable.
For a clear understanding of the issues involved, visit:
http://renergie.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/bp-is-not-the-only-responsible-party/
and
http://donovanlawgroup.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/the-oil-pollution-act-provides-for-the-federalization-of-the-bp-oil-spill/
I hope Nelson and Boxer are successful at pursuing criminal charges. I hope BP is getting the hint we don't like their lies. I wonder what other oil companies are pulling this same crap.
Also, it seems that other organizations are coming up with solutions, like the one the Daily Kos posted about placement of the booms, and I saw a good one on the Dylan Ratigan show where some sort of machine was able to suck up the oil. I know that they have to test these solutions beforehand to get approval, but you'd think they would start somewhere.
I hope as a result of this, regulations and clean up systems are implemented so that a disaster like this will not happen again.
Have you noticed all our systems seems to be failing: the financial industry, the oil industry, housing, and even educational markets with the cost of tuition.
okay, rant over.
The last thing we need is more grandstanding senators and congress-critters holding hearings. What we need is a congress that is willing to adequately fund the agencies that enforce existing regulations, not new unfunded regulations that would add to the administrative burden.
I'm willing to wager they had the Yellow section of that diagram well in order.
BP needs to pay fully, be put out of business entirely, and prosecuted criminally. I say this because I recently read a 4/28/10 Wall Street Journal article (Gold, R. et. al.)—follow this link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704423504575212031417936798.html
about a device called an "acoustic trigger". It effectively is a remote-controlled, last-resort shutoff mechanism [Norway has been using them on ALL of their oil rigs since 1993] that is triggered in the event of catastrophic failure of an oil rig--like a "dead man" switch on a train. Worst of all, still, BP decided to forego their use on grounds of cost and effectiveness and vigorously lobbied against a push by Congress that would've mandated their use! The devices cost only $500,000 (five hundred thousand) per well. BP makes $62million each day, and to think, now, that this disgusting disaster and could have been avoided for only $500,000.00 magnifies my anger and swells my contempt.
This didn't have to happen at all. Regrettably, it appears that things will get worse before they will get better. Somebody needs to do something to end this and prevent it from EVER happening again. Forward the link to as many people as you can!!!
P.S. What do you think the reaction of the citizens of the U.K. would be if Chevron had created the same calamity off of the shores of England, Scotland, Ireland, or Wales? There would be bloodshed.
I like the fact that we, non-oil company people, are searching for ways to better respond to this disaster and prepare for the posibillity of a future one.
I'm tired of the blame game.
I want the clean up game and the change game. New higher standards. New regulations. Better protocals.
Love Fishgrease's idea and inspiration. :)
I find it interesting that nobody has pulled and examined the environmental readiness reports filled for any of the hundreds of other wells in the Gulf, especially those belonging to other companies. Do the plans filed by Exxon or Shell or anyone else look any better? Are they all more or less carbon copies of the BP Plan? Is the entire file cabinet at MMS filled with emergency response plans one big spectacular joke, or is there a gem in there someplace? Has some other company filed a plan that would actually work? Why isn't anyone looking? Maybe there is a plan someone has filed for some well that it would make sense to put into action for this spill. Is the interior department just assuming that all of the plans are the same tired garbage, or have they already examined them and determined they are all garbage and just aren't telling us? That would be the biggest joke of all - if the MMS has already determined that nobody at any oil company has absolutely any clue about what to do in this type of situation, and just isn't letting us know.
Exactly, on so many levels, LarryD !!
I would like to see our government offer 10,000 or so out of work Americans a chance to work cleaning up the onshore spill. Maybe $15.00 per hour, with a $100.00 dollar per night for empty hotels to provide rooms for said workers. $30.00 per day for food in tourist starved restaurants. Maybe a laundry allotment for dry cleaners, who would service tourists. Hire an assortment of workers from transportation drivers, to construction workers, school teachers for training classes. any thing to help the local economy, while cleaning up that mess.Try to hire the long term unemployed. And, force B.P. to pay in real time, say monthly. P.S. Love the show, never miss a second. Gregg
The BP oil spill is certainly not the President's fault and no truly thoughtful person would attribute the multitude of problems surrounding it to Presidential failure. It is pure politics just as all the nonsense blaming President Bush for Katrina was. The benefit of time and careful review has shown overwhelming catastrophic failure at the state (Louisiana) preparation level for Katrina. Funny how the fair state of Mississippi (which properly prepared and interacted with the federal government) gets ignored when Katrina critics get going. The issues at hand in the oil spill are complex and multi-dimensional and no one is above reproach. It is a simple reality that the nation needs readily available energy in vast quantities. Wind and other feel good technologies cannot deliver this with currently available and affordable technologies. Petroleum is the source for the foreseeable future and all the wishful thinking in the world is not going to change that. One significant contributor here that is not getting much attention is the impact of driving the rigs so far out in deep water so that they cannot be visualized from land. This was a significant agenda item for the environmentalists. The depth of the spill is significantly contributing to the trouble managing it. We should be championing the dedicated engineers and scientists who are working tirelessly to cap this catastrophe rather than launching the same old tired liberal boiler plate "greedy corporation" for yet another go around.
Rachel, who the hell from the government signed that permit allowing the drilling. Please find out- and expose them! They are just as guilty, if not more, then BP!
I want to know who from the government signed that permit that allowed BP to drill??? They must be exposed!
Phil Silver...
Do you always accuse others to excuse yourself, so you won't feel so damned helpless? If you're an American citizen, then this is partially your fault too, so then you are part of the problem, unless you are a part of the solution.
"There is nothing as easy as denouncing. It don't take much to see that something is wrong, but it takes some eyesight to see what will put it right again" ~ Will Rogers
BP is acting like a normal corporation in default mode by attempting to decrease their liability, hence their over-utilization of the surfactant, Corexit 9500 manufactured by Nalco Chemical Co. BP is protecting their shareholders by using a product that BP fabricates by way of a consortium, comprised of Goldman-Sachs, BP, & others of that ilk. So BP is essentially buying their own product from themselves, which is much more frugal than purchasing a similar dispersant elsewhere.
BP is using the surfactant to emulsify the crude @ the wellhead, so the chemical is mixed into the solution much more efficiently, than simply spraying it on top of the water via aerosol emissions from an aircraft. In addition, it eliminates the rental cost of the aircraft & reduces the chance that another fisherman will get sprayed by the toxic crap.
The surfactant releases the surface tension of the crude so it no longer floats on the surface, thus defeating the purpose of the absorbent booms, because the emulsified crude is dispersed beneath the waves & into the water column, where it is out of sight - out of mind.
Fishgrease has an excellent idea, & kudos to him for his ingenuity & his patriotism, but it will only catch a small part of the overall volume that threatens the coastline because of the freakin' Corexit 9500.
The Obama Administration is @ the mercy of the same kind of feckless cretins w/ BP, as he was when he took the helm of the Ship of State, only to be put into the 9-line-bind between a rock & a hard place, because of the Republican't fueled financial deregulation & because of the lax to nil oversight by the Bu$hCo Administration, who fostered the worldwide economic meltdown. The CFTC & the SEC were tasked to be watchdogs so Bu$hCo turned them into lapdogs, via his political appointments. The same goes for the MMS, MSHA, OSHA, DOI, BLM, USFS, FDA, & just about every other regulatory agency in the government's alphabet soup of bureaucracy.
Actually it was, Slick Cheney's, "TOP SECRET" 100 day task force that hammered-out their strategy to fabricate a national energy policy which allowed the corporate signatories to create the laws by which they would abide. Hence, those somewhat new-fangled acoustic triggers that actuate the BOP as a redundant, idiot proof, Fail-Safe, in case of a terminal failure of well control, were not a required piece of equipment in the good ol' US of A, as they are everywhere else. It's not so much what you do, as it is, who you know. Cheney was a "friend" of the oil industry.
Anyway, back to Bernanke, Geitner & that bunch, who knew where the bodies were buried & there were damn few who know what they know. So they were the logical choice to aright the the economy & get it back on an even keel again. The same goes for BP, because it's their well, as they hold the lease. BP had the blowout as the result of their own ineptitude & about the only way that President Obama could take the helm, is if he seized BP's US assets & nationalized the 3rd largest, too- big-to-fail multinational cartel in the world, or put it into temporary receivership. Can you imagine how loud the Republican't Party would howl? That might even rankle the Queen, et cetera, too & so the Brits probably wouldn't have offered to back BP financially, as they did today.
I have worked in the oilpatch on drilling rigs for 35 years, all over the Western US & offshore Africa, & I know of know no other way to safely kill this well, than to directionally drill relief holes & attempt a bottom kill procedure by pumping drilling fluid weighted w/ barite, into the blowout until returns are noted @ the wellhead/BOPstack. Finally, cement is pumped into the well to complete the plugging & abandonment operations.
The 50+ days of gas, oil & formation fines in a massive turbulent flow have wreaked havoc on the inner diameter of that BOP & the casing in the hole, so a top kill procedure could easily cause the casing to part or hydraulic it out of the hole, or even force the crude to exit by way of the outer diameter of the casing & cause an underground blowout. Things would get exponentially worse in about two shakes of a lamb's tail. BP chose a cheaper grade of casing as well, but that's how they stay profitable. Penny wise & pound foolish!
So please cool your jets, Hi-HO Phil Silver, because it will be awhile until 1 of the 2 rigs reach TD.
If BP had not been such a penny-pinching outfit, they never would have ordered the Driller & Toolpusher for Transocean to displace the weighted mud in the hole w/ seawater, until the cement had properly cured. But time is money & they were making it quicker & easier for the completion rig to re-enter the well & run tubing, etc., & then put the well into production. Transocean's drilling rig that burned-up & sank to the bottom, charged much more per day-rate, than a smaller completion rig would have cost, so BP was in a hurry to get the Transocean drlg. rig off of the well.
The old FEMA under James Lee Witt's leadership, would have been Johnny on the spot in stopping the oil before it came ashore, but Bu$hCo sold-off all of FEMA's equipment to his crony corporatist banksters & gangsters, so he could privatize as much of FEMA as possible.
If BP would abide the EPA's order to cease & desist mixing the Corexit 9500, the crude oil could be corralled-in w/ booms & skimmed off of the surface w/ retrofitted oil tankers, as Saudi Arabia did in the -90s after a spill in the Persian Gulf. They reclaimed 85% of the crude oil that was spilled.
In the late -80s, my father was the Toolpusher of a rig that was drilling offshore in the Persian Gulf, when they took a gas kick while were drilling ahead. Dad took his pressure readings & told the Derrickman to commence mixing a pill of heavier drilling fluid so he could displace the gas bubble w/ heavier mud & so the increased weight of the mud would create the sufficient hydrostatic head to prevent any more gas from migrating to the surface. He was relieving the pressure of the rising bubble through the choke manifold after he had closed the pipe-rams on the BOP. Gas expands as it rises to the surface & a book-smart Company Hand had decided that he would close in the choke to get his own pressure readings, without notifying my father.
It didn't take too long until the well blew out & the Tender that was anchored near the platform started to sink because of the massive amounts of gas that floated to the surface had decreased the bouyancy of the Tender. The Barge Capatain quickly weighed his forward anchors so he could use the aft anchors to pull the Tender out of harms way. Then he deployed the Zodiac boat to rescue my father & his Daylight Driller from the drink. The Driller had forgotten to take off his steel-toed boots before he jumped off of the platform & he almost drowned.
Red Adair tried for about 5 or 6 months to kill that well, but to no avail. But a typhoon/hurricane blew in & created such a low barometric pressure event that it caused the blowout to U-tube & kill itself by sucking salt water.
Strange but true
Actually, we can trace this back to the Regan Revolution : Government BAD / Big Business GOOD - and if you think differently, you must be a Liberal and out of touch with the Real America, and maybe a communist or something - but definitely UN-American. So, we went with the Unfettered Capitalism / Laissez Faire plan.
Well, Well....... and now we have a catastrophic Financial Failure and a catastrophic Environmental Failure ....... hummm........ maybe it wasn't such a great plan and just maybe those of us who had a different philosophy all along weren't so wrong, afterall. I'm just saying............